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Just wanted to throw in my two cents. If you come at it as a front-end developer that's a complete beginner to CMSs, then PW should be very easy to get going. It's built around working the same way that existing web technologies work… Pages map in the same way that URLs do… Template files are just plain HTML/PHP files… the API is largely the same as a front-end API (jQuery)… and so on. So if you know your basic web technologies outside of CMSs, then you won't find a simpler system than ProcessWire. The problem is most other CMSs don't work that way. So the line gets more blurry when you've become used to the terminology and approach of another CMS, because PW can be quite different. Sometimes you have to unlearn what you know from elsewhere in order to appreciate the simplicity of PW. People are always trying to find complexity that isn't there, especially those that grew up on other platforms. PW is a system that rewards you by being curious. We aim to show you how to fish so that you can catch the big fish. We're not here to catch the fish for you. You don't have to know anything about fishing, but you should know how to yell for help if you fall in the water. And you should be willing to learn by example. I learn best by example, so this is the way I tend to teach too (and I recognize not everyone learns the same way). PW is a CMS and CMF, not a website builder. If you are curious and willing to explore, you'll find it is very simple indeed. Certainly far simpler than even WordPress in creating a custom website. You do have to come from the point of view of "I want to create and have the system adapt to me" rather than "I will create something based on what the system provides." If you already know what you want to create and it's something unique, you won't find a simpler path to get there than PW. WordPress is a different beast, in that it's basically saying "YOU WILL CREATE A BLOG or modify this blog and call it something else." Some people like that underlying structure… "okay, we're starting with a blog, what can we do with it?" Others do not like that underlying structure. Our audience consists of those that want to have a system support their original creation rather than mash up an existing creation. There was a PDF posted earlier that I think hit upon some good points, and I appreciate the effort that went into putting it together. The fictional character being scripted in the dialog is not our target. I can go into specifics if anyone wants me to, but I was definitely left feeling at the end of it that we have to be careful about hand-feeding too much or else we'll start attracting people beyond our support resources. Folks that want the fish cooked and filleted rather than folks learning to fish. Perhaps in time we will want to attract more of the consumer-type audience, but currently I don't know how to support users looking to find all the answers in a sitemap file. Keep in mind that unbridled growth is not necessarily desirable. Most of us don't get paid for most of the work we do here and we do best if we grow in a more healthy manner, attracting more thoughtful designer/developers that are here to learn and also contribute. Obviously the author of the PDF is one of the thoughtful ones (and the PDF is a great contribution), even if his fictional character isn't necessarily, but we'll welcome him anyway. But we will definitely be going through the PDF in more detail to learn and improve from it where appropriate, while keeping our audience in mind. I think we're doing something right, because our audience is growing rapidly. I'm nearly full time on ProcessWire now, and it's still difficult to keep up with everyone. At present, I like that our audience is largely open-minded, curious and thoughtful designers and developers. Somehow we've attracted an incredible quality of people and that's what makes this place great. We could not ask for a better group of people here. I'm reluctant to lead PW towards a website builder direction because I think that's when the quality of the community could go down, as people come looking to eat fish rather than learn, catch some fish, and throw some back. The reality is that part of our long term goals include converting the rather large audience that has outgrown WordPress into ProcessWire users. I'm convinced that we do that by giving them more ProcessWire, and not more WordPress. But at the same time, we always have to keep an eye on WordPress and learn. They've been lucky no doubt, but they are also doing many things right. So we have been and always will be working to make the WP-side of users more comfortable in ProcessWire, while also trying to help them grow by distancing them from the limited WP mindset.

Hi guys I've started a new blog on Content Management and while it's not even remotely finished, thought I'd share here. I'm hoping to fill it with news, interviews and tutorials as I proceed. Content is pretty thin at the moment and there's plenty of design bits to fix. http://www.CMSsizzle.com Why and who? The target audience isn't so much you hard-core, seasoned CMS professionals but more likely to be oriented towards people who are new to the CMS's. I also want to highlight the great features of my favourite CMS because I think CMS developers should be more aware of what other platforms are doing. Because it's built in PW, it helps me learn PW and the Blog Module. Anyway, I'll give it a go and hopefully I can find time to update it regularly-ish

I think it is terribly easy to clutter up a ProcessWire installation with a huge amount of information. One thing that is important to remember is that ProcessWire is not WordPress and is not aimed at the casual blogger with little knowledge hitting an install button on their CPanel. ProcessWire is a true CMS in that it is a system that manages content - whatever that content is. Because it is agnostic about the nature of the content, by nature it requires a certain amount of development input post installation - in other words, its strength is that it does not try and force you down a certain route. Consequently, it really is a development CMS, even though it is incredibly easy to learn even for non-developers. So, I agree with Diogo just above that all that is required is links to useful tutorials and for the actual installation to be as clean as possible. As an additional note, I would like to see a way of reverting the installation to a clean state. So, for instance, you can install with demo content, or maybe a third party tutorial profile, but once you have finished, you can press a destructive button to "install clean profile." This effectively removes all trace of the existing profile, wipes the database (keeping the admin user details) and gets you back to a blank install. This button would, of course, need to be available as part of the disposable profiles and not there by default! Would not want any accidents......

An example, This morning I took a 4 hour online course on "CSS: Frameworks and Grids". I took it because I wanted to better understand the subject. It was very beneficial, to me, because the course filled in the gap of knowledge about CSS Frameworks and Grids that I still didn't have prior to taking the course. That course and any others that I take helps me in developing websites for myself and clients. I put the time and effort into stuff I believe are important to my success. I have no problem investing in myself. Other people may not have to take courses to understand these subjects and I have no problem with that. I studied PW for over a year before I felt that I partially understood what was going on. I have a sandbox of domains where I practice and practice my web development skills. Some things I still don't understand and I will take a course/courses, buy a book/books, read a bunch of articles, study source code or learn from following the forum (where others have solved a problem). When I learn more about PHP, Javascript, Jquery, MySQL, CSS3 and HTML5, I increase my marketing value in a world of developers. PW has actually done me a great favor in that it requires a level of knowledge to work with it. I would never have taken the time to relearn the basics if it wasn't for PW. I owe Ryan Cramer a debt of gratitude. I'm a subject matter expert on a lot of things in Information Technology (IT), Networking or Communications worlds (and this is not me thinking I am, but based on documented fact). All that experience and knowledge doesn't make learning PW or PHP any easier and I still have to put in the time to learn the basics that apply to PW. I've done work in WordPress, Drupal and Joomla. They are very popular because knowledgeable developers have crafted modules and plug-ins that let anyone easily put together a website. Is the resulting website secure? Maybe or maybe not. That answer is always based on the knowledge level of the person developing the website. You have to know what and why you are dong things. As I said the other day, it's not magic. Good website developers have no problems with the learning process. I left those CMS because they required you to do things in a very structured way. PW frees you from all that BS. I hope everyone is successful using PW, however I know they won't be unless they invest some time into learning the basics. There's a level of understanding that everyone is required to achieve before they can successfully utilize PW. We can wish all day that there shouldn't be a level of knowledge you need. PW is basically PHP with a prettier interface and a dynamic API. If you already know PHP you won't have any problems with PW. If you know the other basic building blocks of web development you are well on your way. Not learning PHP is not an option where PW is concerned. Take it another way, if anyone took the time to learn PHP they would be remarkable with WordPress, Drupal, Joomla and a host of the most popular CMS in the world. They are all built on PHP. This is a great and vibrant community where the knowledgeable have no problems helping others understand the basics. That's what is going on in the PW forum on a daily basis. These are professionals who utilize PW to make a living. They don't have to share their knowledge, yet thankfully they do. To summarize, learning is important. If you don't value the learning process then theres nothing anyone can do for you.

I also do straight voices (Pirates are a bit of a sideline, really...) And UK voices are just as good for selling as US ones - in fact, they are often taken more seriously. http://dancingbear.co.uk/joss-demo.mp3

awwww! Oh, and John Hurt too. http://dancingbear.co.uk/joss-demo-hurt.mp3 But probably not a good idea unless you want to get sued!

No. It shouldn't. Sorry, but this discussion is getting weird. The "more user friendliness party" is trying to make a race car suitable for the average driver. Not everything in life you come across is easy to apprehend nor should it be. There is enough stuff out there that is "everybody's darling", mostly weak average stuff that - if you dive deeper - causes more problems than it solves. Being based on coding skills belongs to the core strengths of PW. This is not a replacement for Squarespace or any other out-of-the-box website building system. And there is no need to become the next WP. Why not? Because WP is already there and does a good job. The market gap for PW is for advanced developers seeking for a precision tool where the sky is the limit. Unfortunately this requires a minimum learning effort of let's say half a day. If you can't effort that, there are plenty alternatives. Thanks.

Hello everyone! I thought about creating a more "professional" video that shows the advantages of using processwire. These are some examples of what I want to do: http://vimeo.com/102909614 http://vimeo.com/103272218 My pronunciation is in some phrases like Sofia Vergara: That's why I'm here need a good Samaritan with a decent microphone to lend me his voice 10 or 11 phrases.

Code before talk. With 2.5.0 released Friday, and 2.5.1 dev released today, there's been a lot of code.

It strikes me that a more accurate topic of this thread could be "how to make PW more beginner friendly." Not to make light of the OPs issue and invaluable insight but Ryan (and co) have already done an incredible job of making PW user-friendly. Maybe thats just semantics (user-friendly Vs beginner friendly) but I wouldn't say PW isn't user-friendly.

Now a real reply. I seem to have stepped on some toes here and there. Sorry about that. I certainly don't mean to be "deliberately unfair" as Diogo says. I have the utmost respect for you non-coding guys to learn how to use PW and PHP along the way. However, it's a well known psychological phenomenon for people to justify past efforts as being neccessary. But having to learn a fair bit of coding along the way should not be a justification for possible unneeded difficulties in PW. That's what I meant. I certainly don't criticise anyone here. But I do feel PW could be more usable for non-devs, so that initial and basic stuff is indeed more low level. Leaving the coding for complex, higher level stuff. And yes, I know it's fair to say that learing low level stuff is needed before higher level stuff. So, every point of view has its merits. I also appreciate all support that is given to me and other newcomers in this forum. But maybe I am unlike other newcomers who either become PW fans themselves, or are leaving without bothering any further. I try to tell my point of view in the hope that it will be of some use and PW will become more what I had expected, instead of just leaving. Maybe that's annoying to PW lovers, coming across like someone who is criitsizing PW without putting effort in it and expecting PW doing it the Argos way, instead of myself doing it the PW way I do understand that. So again: sorry for any "unfairness" you might feel from what I say or how I see it. Be assured it's not meant that way.

since i come from the same former as argos - i've to write some different letters. like written i'am a "non-coder" too with limited skills but kinda like "mud grubbing" on code to learn new things! (and love to think abstract and crossways and listen and read to people that know more - so i get most things i need sorted) the actual homepage of PW says for the mainreasons to choose PW: 1. Build Bigger, Faster, Stronger, Easier. ->Impression: Yeah its a good slogan but how it serve my needs? -> Ok thats says nothing about the techical side of the product - this could even placed on the the typo3 homepage wich is a real complex system for content 2. A friendly and powerful open source CMS with an exceptionally strong foundation.With all custom fields, an easy-to-use jQuery-inspired API, and a powerful selector engine, ProcessWire will rise to any task. ->Impression: friendly & powerfull sounds a bit like "captain planet" ->strong foundation...hmm we will see - custom fields...interesting - what is a jQuery-inspired API??? - what is a selector engine??? rise to any task? ===> now i'm really curious! -> Ok this sounds not like a normal CMS - API such things only named on PHP frameworks...not on a joomla, drupal or wordpress homepage.....hmm read on 3. last paragraph of intro: Managing and developing a site in ProcessWire is shockingly simple–and fun–compared to what you may be used to. What makes ProcessWire different? ->Impression: hmm i just wanna know now how it works and where is the fun...more curious ok read the Whats different stuff!! -> So far so good--until now we read about fun, developing, API, selector-engine ->get in the end to this video: http://processwire.com/videos/overview/ This video shows _not_ here you can install a theme with one click - here you add some fancy stuff......!! this video shows the real power under the cover! So for me after 30 minutes reading and watching some videos.....i get a "friendly and powerfull" feeling that i read about in the 2. part of the homepage! For me as a non-dev landing on the PW homepage - everthing is clear - there is a API (hey an API -> i have to code let's look if i can take this stuff....until now a have a little bit fear of this API thingy) there is a naked/fast/foundation as backend (ok -> no problem i like minimal effort on tools) all is a page and a field - i can create what i want----> ohhhh hmm that give me power - but more power is more responsibility - can i manage this? this is no "normal" CMS beeing disappointed depends on what you expect - not what you find! I'm sad that PW not fit your needs - in a few days my first website will go online - i've managed some parts (easy forms, image managment, small newssystem) that i missed for building small websites, argos have a look in the showcase section i will explain deeper what i did next week. best regards mr-fan

Good idea - some of the big PW users here have spent a lot of time "selling" PW to their clients - their insight would be useful. (And some of the insights will be plain ludicrous, but one takes what one can...)

@blad: Why not making the hard-cut version of the video first so we could throw some ideas in if something is missing and doing the voice stuff afterwards? Thanks for making this anyway

Ok, that's our plane! Let's go guys...

Haha! I'm happy to help out, I have quite an "English" voice but if you need something sillier maybe consider Joss Actually a lot of these product videos are done in very upbeat American accents, probably better at selling than a British one EDIT: Do all these product intros have the SAME jingle??

I think all this discussion is very valuable, but everyone knows my opinion by now. I will try to resume it with an allegory. When you were at school, I'm sure you had to read some classical books for your native language class and probably bought those small resumes. The purpose of those resumes was to put things in context and explain some trickier parts AFTER you read the book, but some of my coleagues colleagues (not me ) read only the resume and not the book. Some had average results, and some had bad results, but none had a good result. Maybe if those resumes wouldn't exist, they would be forced to read the book and have good results, of course they might not read the book at all and have all bad results, but that would be their own fault right? The point is: we can of course try to make things easier for new users, and some can be really useful and important, but we should be careful not to make things look easier than they are by hiding the complexity under the carpet.

Install page path history and rename with confidence.

Yeah, I appreciate Ryan's feedback, as well as the others. Although I may sound a bit locked in my own vision to some people, it all actually makes me rethink me own expectations about this system, and more important: my current and future situation and livelyhood. So thanks for making me have a small existential crisis, LOL BTW Personally I don't like Wordpress at all, so I don't hope anyone suspects me of being a Wordpress fan, heaven forbid. @Nico: Did your father use the default or the Argos backend?

Okay, I had to back track to make sure you were not talking about me! I know my luscious long brown (or used to be) hair can be confusing, but......

Inspired by Pete's recent change to his avatar and due to all the revelations this last year about digital spying, I decided it was time to take action to hide my avatar's identity from the powers that be. Advising my avatar to don a mask seemed like a simple step he could take towards that goal. I'm glad others are starting to take an interest in their avatars' rights too.

Point taken and accepted. Don't think you didn't contribute, because you did. I still don't agree with 99.9% of what you said but it did push some buttons of awareness in the PW team that will surely not be ignored. this doesn't mean things will change, but your concerns will be taken in consideration. Now, lets get back to work!

I do feel that most have a pretty good sense of where you are coming from. A lot of them just don't agree with you. Don't confuse this with misunderstanding. "Now it's a developer platform that suggest it's also a ready to use CMS, besides a platform. It's not" If maybe you would stop stating your opinion as a fact people would stop responding the way they do. I've seen many happy end-users without any technical knowledge use the default PW admin on a daily basis to manage content. In the development stage of a site PW does assume some basic skills to get the most out of it, but i think this is pretty clear already, and in fact the same goes for any CMS. The fact that you apparently are able to build sites without touching a line of code using WordPress, good for you, but this doesn't make PW a 'platform' only.

You'll never see onboard instructions on a Formel1 car.

blad, André's English is not too british at all

looks good and as long as it works … i tried to optimize some things (one could do even more): $(document).ready(function(){ $.ajaxSetup ({ // Disable caching of AJAX responses cache: false }); $('body').on('click', '.openplayer', function() { // delegate bind event event.preventDefault(); // stop the browser from following the link var $this = $(this), // cache selector playerOpenClass = "player-open", // we use this as variable for all other occurences $playerOpen = $("."+playerOpenClass), // cache selector url = $this.attr('href'), divclass = $this.attr('data-class'), $playerDiv = $("#" + divclass), // cache selector buttonclass = $this.attr('id'); // /* Check to see if there is a div with the class player-open If there is, slide it closed, remove its player-open class then move on to the load */ if ($playerOpen.is(':visible')) { $playerOpen.slideUp("slow", function(){ var $this = $(this); $this.empty().removeClass(playerOpenClass); $playerDiv.load(url, function(){ var $this = $(this); $this .hide() .slideDown("slow") .addClass(playerOpenClass); }); }); }else{ /* If there is not a visible div with the class .player-open Then just go ahead with the load */ $playerDiv.load(url, function(){ var $this = $(this); $this .hide() .slideDown("slow") .addClass(playerOpenClass); }); } }) //end openplayer .on('click', '.closeplayer', function() { // delegate bind close event $playerOpen.slideUp("slow", function(){ var $this = $(this); $this .empty() .hide() .removeClass("player-open"); }) }); }); i just edited, but didn't test it, so beware of typos.

I like the idea of this module, but I think it's enough that it welcomes the user and links to useful tutorials.

Where's your horse, Don Diogo de la Vega,?

The headline is fine - good strong copy and journalistic style. It is called "setting your stall out" and sets the scene for an article. And the gentleman is in the wonderful Dublin; the spelling of the word favourite is fine. Nice to see proper English even after all that Guinness/Murphy's....

BTW, WillyC was way ahead of the curve in this regard.

Oh! I should make some mask on my facebook avatar too if it helps privacy! Guess mr. Snowden already got his one somewhere in the boundless space of my dear Motherland. I hope it's safe to talk about it here with no mask yet though.

I suspect you are already a PW fan but would like to take the short route. That's not allowed, no. Sorry.

You were right about a limit. Googled it: adding the following to php.ini fixes the issue. xdebug.max_nesting_level = 200 Restarted all services, edited something and now the error has gone.

I would give you 50 likes for that sentence if it wasn't for some passive-aggressive details in the rest of the post. I thought of just letting go, since your post seems to put a healthy stop on the discussion, but then, I don't feel like swallowing some things that I do consider unfair. I'm referring to these: I felt that everyone was very honest in their comments in the thread, and most of them (me included) said that they were not coders and had to learn a lot in the way. We also welcomed you and tried to give a friendly push to become better in what you do for living, since you said you're not happy with your knowledge. In general we don't know each other personally in the forum, but we still expect that people are honest, cordial, truthful in their opinions, and I think this forum in extraordinary in that aspect. You didn't do anything wrong in giving your opinions, but in my opinion, you are wrong when being deliberately unfair.

hehe Send away- warning, I may edit it for voiceability.... is that okay? (I did that with Ryan too)

Obviously if it's for a bit of fun then I think anything goes but if we're being serious here about using it as a promotional tool, I would try and focus on the voice being friendly and bright.

The Russian script would need to be different, especially if from the Cold War. "ProcessWire is based on a powerful API .... but you don't need to know that!" Mind you, that could apply to the US version these days! (Sorry, Ivan! )

Just to make sure, this is not heading in the wrong direction: I'm convinced, everybody in this thread and in the community values your perspective. Thanks for contributing - even if many - including me - seem not to share your standpoint.

I am not complaining at all, nor do I think PW should be a system for non-website builders, nor am I such a person myself. Please don't feel attacked if I have some criticsm about your favorite tool. My aim was to help PW forward by telling what I as a non-coder would like to see, and what I miss in PW from my own perspective. However, the typical response I get from most hardcore users is some form of passive attack: "It's you. PW is great, and you just should put more effort in it, and that you will see the light". Well maybe. But that's not the issue. The issue is that I don't WANT to have to put effort in it to create even a simple site. But if Ryan and other contributors decide not to put effort in making PW more easy for creating basic websites, that's fine. Hey, it's your product. My only advise is to make your position on this more clear on your site, and not market PW as you do now. I really thought PW was another kind of platform than it turned out to be, and I based that on the information on the website.

Joss, your's ain't Zorro - it's more like a sleeping mask )) But you're right - it's probably some weird css cashing . At least noone reveals his involvement in the plot...

I swear I saw netcarver and horst in black masks before this topic. That's why I asked. The mystery is still unrevealed to me))

I have to disagree here. External documentation gives you context. The moment might be important but it's for sure not the most important. The learning curve will be lower if people read the documentation first.

Went through it very quickly, wrote down a couple of improvements: Every time you call $(this), all the jQuery function runs and adds extra overhead, the best practice is to assign it to a variable: var $this = $(this); //<- here. I usually use a $ to mark the variables that represent a jQuery collection var url = $this.attr('href'); var divclass = $this.attr('data-class'); var buttonclass = $this.attr('id'); The same applies to elements: var $playerOpen = $(".player-open"); var $element = $("#" + divclass); $playerOpen.slideUp("slow", function(){ $playerOpen.empty().removeClass("player-open"); $element.load(url, function(){ $element.hide().slideDown("slow"); $(this).addClass("player-open"); }); // EDIT: that one was missing. not easy to write code in the forum editor }); You could, instead of connecting the buttons and the divs by ID , simply open the next element, since that's how it's organized: //$("#" + divclass).load(url, function(){ $this.next().load(url, function(){ edit: tobaco was faster and more complete

u.looks here /site/config.php see buttock whare $config->dbUser $config->dbPass

Computers in an Office are usually behind the same router ip, so in that case: Go to the Admin Section of Google Analytics Select the Filters Tab Select New Filter Select ‘Create new Filter’ Name your filter, place the router IP address and save. In case of a dynamic router ip usually your ISP only changes the last two ip4 blocks so you can enter an ip range for them. If the computers are behind different routers or otherwise connected to the internet then: Simply edit the hosts file and bypass the DNS server. On Linux: Path to the hosts file => /etc/hosts Open a terminal window and type: sudo nano /etc/hosts (you can substitute any other text editor) enter your password On Windows: first go to file options and set: 1.show hidden folders and files 2.Unhide extensions for known file types 3.Unhide protected operating system files 4.In case the hosts file is owned by the system, in properties you have to open the security tab and edit owner ship to the computer user. Path to the hosts file: On windows => %systemroot%\system32\drivers\etc\ If windows was installed in it's default location then that would be: C:\Windows\System32\Drivers\Etc\Hosts Easiest way is to open with notepad. Example of how you could edit your hosts file: # My filters 127.0.0.1 www.google-analytics.com 127.0.0.1 google-analytics.com 127.0.0.1 ssl.google-analytics.com The hosts file has no file extension so When finished editing save as all files and put hosts between quotes: "hosts" Or save as hosts.txt go back to it's location and remove the .txt Don't forget to revert back the 4 windows settings above. Done. Another good use of the hosts file is to block unwanted video advertisements in your browser as they eat up your monthly surfing limit (usually 1 or 2 Gb) when you are mobile with an internet dongle and sim card. (or your montly data limit on your smartphone) For smartphones go here: (also usable for pc's) https://tools.google.com/dlpage/gaoptout or here https://adblockplus.org/en/android https://addons.mozilla.org/mk/android/addon/no-google-analytics/

The shiny new ProcessWire 2.5 features were just too bright for my eyes....oh wait, it's sunglasses I need..........

The walkthrough module is great. We just have to make sure we also answer the basic questions like "What is a field", "What is a template" and "What is a page". Creating a field is already very easy to do (it's just a basic form). The question is, why do you do it and how does it relate to a template and its pages? We've already covered this thousands of times in tutorials, video walkthroughs, faqs and forum posts – but we don't explain it in the actual user interface. couldn't get the module to work 100%, but I imagine the guided tour to be something like this Create new text field -> Create new template -> Add the same field you created in the first step, to your new template -> Create a page based on this template -> Point the user to the template file and describe how to add the field to the output of that template -> Visit the final page -> Recap all the steps in text and point to relevant documentation for further reading.

I haven't done it for a while, but there used to be a method based on cookies. In short, you visited a dedicated page with all your relevant devices. The page set an "excluse me" cookie, which made this device not count anymore. Try to google if this method is still applicable. It worked fine for me.

Inspired by the pdf I made a little proof of concept welcome page + guide through how to create a field, template and page. Check it out: GetStarted.zip Edit: Updated it.

Just off the top of my head, I think I would look at using url segments (well a url segment), with one template dealing with all the steps by way of the form submitting to itself. So the page would be example.com/order/ and each step would be denoted by example.com/order/step2/, example.com/order/step3/ etc. I agree that $session would probably be a good way to store the data as you build it up, and you would need to check that, at any given step, you have all the data you would expect at that point. A progress indicator (working like a breadcrumb trail, but including 'greyed out' future steps) would help usability, both allowing the user to back up and showing them where they are in the process. Smarter people than I will surely come up with better ideas (ajax, anyone?), but, as with almost everything in PW, there are almost as many solutions to every problem as there are people attempting to solve that problem.