Drupal vs Processwire

[ryan]

Since I'm still learning PW I still find myself reaching for Drupal particularly for projects that need complex user relationships and roles and permission settings. Drupal excels at this. I am sure Processwire does too, but I'm not there yet.

Drupal is still a quicker path to a community-generated content site. It can all be built in ProcessWire, but Drupal is well suited to this from the get-go. It's not just user relationships, but the fact that it's a markup generating system… not much separates the editing side from the presentation side (this is also a point of frustration for some). Most other things I would say ProcessWire is better suited for (yes I'm a little biased). But it ultimately comes down to what system a webdev has the most expertise in, and Drupal is one of those that you can accomplish quite a lot in when you know it well. That's if you are willing to accept other aspects of the system–it's a fundamentally different approach [from ProcessWire] that works well for some and not others. Mary–I've always liked the fact that you know so many systems well, and stay up-to-speed with them. You've got a very good perspective about the CMS landscape. I'm glad ProcessWire is one of the systems you like working with.

Btw, when you are trying to solve a particular user/role/permission scenario, please post it and we can help to figure it out. It's all possible in ProcessWire, but some more complex scenarios are solved programmatically with hooks (but it's a lot easier than it sounds). 

[MatthewSchenker]

Greetings,

Ryan, that is very generous of you! Your attitude is one of the many reasons ProcessWire's reputation is growing. Even though this is your system, you offer honest answers that are the best for devs and not just markting hype.

OK, with that said...

I have been doing more with user roles in ProcessWire and ProcessWire is definitely capable of doing anything we want. I have used Drupal and Joomla, and even though both of those systems may have "community" elements built in, the struggle to theme and override all of their design and function assumptions is far more time consuming than setting up user roles in ProcessWire.

Also, after you do a few user roles in ProcessWire, you get the system and future ones are easier. *

My opinion is, take the couple of extra steps to set up your user system in ProcessWire. It may take a bit more time up front, but will be better longer term. Post on the forum for specific cases and people will share the code.

Thanks,

Matthew

* Another example of the ProcessWire "framework" concept. User roles in ProcessWire are more like doing roles in a framework than in most CMSs. This probably deserves its own separate discussion (http://processwire.com/talk/topic/2676-configuring-template-path/#entry43228).

[onjegolders]

I agree with Matthew about reusing code from different projects.

I think user/membership models could be a really interesting module for PW as it comes up quite a lot and I know for a fact it's possible in Processwire, perhaps a good one for this community funding idea?

[apeisa]

I might have something baking regarding user groups and simplified access management.

[kongondo]

I might have something baking regarding user groups and simplified access management.

That's make two of us then...though mine is a fun project, a learning platform... I'm sure yours will be much better

[apeisa]

nice to hear. Mine will be pretty simple: introduces groups, you can tie members directly into groups or tie role into group (and all users with tied role will belong to group).

Then page based access for groups viewing and/or editing page branches.

[kongondo]

Aah. Sounds nice.

Mine doesn't really do the access management per se, at least not in that sense. It just simplifies the task of creating users, assigning roles, etc and sort of provides a directory of users in one nice interface, that can be applied to different scenarios.

[apeisa]

I think our modules will be friends <3

[einsteinsboi]

nice to hear. Mine will be pretty simple: introduces groups, you can tie members directly into groups or tie role into group (and all users with tied role will belong to group).

Then page based access for groups viewing and/or editing page branches.

Looking forward to this!

[einsteinsboi]

Drupal is still a quicker path to a community-generated content site. It can all be built in ProcessWire, but Drupal is well suited to this from the get-go. It's not just user relationships, but the fact that it's a markup generating system… not much separates the editing side from the presentation side (this is also a point of frustration for some). Most other things I would say ProcessWire is better suited for (yes I'm a little biased). But it ultimately comes down to what system a webdev has the most expertise in, and Drupal is one of those that you can accomplish quite a lot in when you know it well. That's if you are willing to accept other aspects of the system–it's a fundamentally different approach [from ProcessWire] that works well for some and not others. Mary–I've always liked the fact that you know so many systems well, and stay up-to-speed with them. You've got a very good perspective about the CMS landscape. I'm glad ProcessWire is one of the systems you like working with.

Btw, when you are trying to solve a particular user/role/permission scenario, please post it and we can help to figure it out. It's all possible in ProcessWire, but some more complex scenarios are solved programmatically with hooks (but it's a lot easier than it sounds). 

Ryan, I like your honesty, how gracious you are, and the fact that you're just such a nice guy  

[BUCKHORN]

I had to leave Drupal behind, because it didn't serve my community. Basically it was too expensive and it's really starting to cater more to enterprise clients. I'll probably never use Drupal again, unless it's for an enterprise client with a big budget. Building a simple blog site is fast and easy enough by cloning an existing Drupal site, but the problem is the ongoing costs of maintenance. I can knock out a fairly robust Drupal site in a week and charge less than $2-5k, but at that price point, I'm not attracting clients who will pay the $2,500 - $5,000 a year to maintain (both the server and the software) and host Drupal (In my experience Drupal needs a dedicated or vps server for sites w/o any significant amount of traffic). 

My clients are small businesses and uneducated regarding their options. They think Drupal is the next WordPress w/o realizing it's not even close to being as simple, it's more expensive, and it's not all that easy to maintain. On top of that, Drupal devs charge between $90 and $175 per hour.

From a business perspective, Drupal is fantastic (a cash cow). There's always an upsell, always a problem to fix, always a new update to apply (then fix). It's too bad I'm not it in for the money. I prefer to get paid less and enjoy the work I do (PW is fun, Drupal is a pain in the ass). I want to provide quality, charge a fair price, and work with great people, not dupe someone into buying a boat as it were, which is what I see a lot of Drupal web agencies doing. They don't choose the best platform for the client, instead they put them on Drupal... the recurring income stream because it's good for their business. Inexperienced devs/freelancers will do the same thing, but for the right reasons most of the time. They just don't have the experience with Drupal to know what problems lie ahead. 

The only advantages I see of using Drupal, 

-Drupal has a huge community testing and reporting bugs which makes it more stable, secure and more accessible to more server/hosting environments. 

-Drupal has a ton of quality free modules.

-Drupal is great for enterprise clients. The costs at this scope are quite reasonable and Drupal seems to meet the needs of these clients very well (talking about huge companies). For example putting the .gov site in Drupal was smart, the whitehouse has the budget and resources to do the job right and they have a much better solution for the price than building something that large from scratch. 

My rule of thumb, if a client is getting 100K unique visitors a month, then consider Drupal, but also consider whether or not the client can afford it. If you sell someone a Drupal site that they can't afford, you will have nothing but conflict and unhappy clients. Sometimes too you need to consider the level of sophistication of the client. Even if a client has the budget, it's sometimes better to put them on a platform which grows as their understanding of websites grows. A way to illustrate this... Say I work at a snowboard shop and i have a customer who has only been snowboarding once. I wouldn't sell them them to top of the line board unless they insisted. Instead I'd try to get them to purchase a board that is more appropriate for beginners. Not only will the board be cheaper, it's not built for precision like the high end boards. The customer will have an easier time learning on the entry level board and have more fun as a result. If sold them the high end board, they may have difficult controlling it and fall a lot or run into a tree.

To address some of your points on the difficulty of selling PW...

My point is, change your sales strategy for each client. You may think PW is the best thing since sliced bread (it is), but if you are interested in being successful in business, sell people what they want, not what they need. They will be ecstatic with you and your services and you'll have a fat wallet and more work than you know what to do with. As your relationship with these people grows, you'll be able to move them to a better platform like PW when it's time for a new website or when they decide they need something that their current platform doesn't provide.

My boat reference: A boat is a hole in the water into which you pour money.

[pwired]

PW is fun, Drupal is a pain in the ass

All that Drupal is this and that is already discussed a lot on this forum and on a ton of other forums (google them). Drupal is well known and ranked high in the top of cms world for a good reason. More clients these days who need a website have already heard about drupal and wordpress and may expect you to do the same. However none of them has heard about processwire. If you look at job offers for cms - websites work in newspapers, etc, have you ever seen a company asking for somebody experienced in processwire ? From all the people I know my self who are doing work as a web designer / coder use eiter typo3, drupal or wordpress. Many small businesses, offices, services, etc, don't even need a full blown database driven interactive website. They just need a simple website only presenting their products and services with a contact form and or guestbook with pictures. Something that can be easy maintained by the same guy who is also doing the helpdesk on the phone. Good example of this is getsimplecms  http://get-simple.info/ Anyway, I was only lucky that I bumped into processwire because I got fed up with modx and took the same road from there like so many others on this forum. Processwire left out all the things I didn't like in all the other cms'es out there that I tried and makes it what a cms should be. I think processwire could need some more publicity and promotion to rank it along with drupal and wordpress.

Or maybe despite it's huge potential, they want processwire to stay ranked as it is, I don't know.

It's too bad I'm not it in for the money. I prefer to get paid less and enjoy the work I do

You must be a lucky guy then. Economy is slowing down both in Europe and America, unemployment and competition is growing. Prices in the supermarket, electricity, gas, rent, etc. are going up every year So I really need to make some money. But maybe that is all just me.

[BUCKHORN]

You must be a lucky guy then. Economy is slowing down both in Europe and America, unemployment and competition is growing. Prices in the supermarket, electricity, gas, rent, etc. are going up every year So I really need to make some money. But maybe that is all just me.

Nope, not luck. I've never handed out a single business card. I work harder, longer, smarter. Where others give up, I keep going. There's a fine line between doing good work and great, and I put forth the effort that others don't to produce great work. I'm also very careful not to think about what I don't want, but rather what I do want. For example, while you are thinking about prices in the supermarket, elec, gas, rent, etc. your perception shifts to fear and scarcity. Afraid you can't pay rent, afraid you don't have enough work, afraid you'll be in debt. You attract what you think about. I'm an entrepreneur, and yes, I have the same concerns, but instead of worrying I'm thinking about solving problems for others, growing my business and how I can provide value to others. Which thought pattens do you think will serve you? If you want to build websites, how does thinking about supermarket prices help you do that? Money and success is a natural bi-product of correct thinking and providing value to others. So that's one aspect, and it takes practice to correct thought patterns that aren't serving you (limiting beliefs, e.g. the market sucks, there's no jobs. Some of my most successful times were during my nations worst economic recessions). 

Looking at this from another perspective... If you aren't getting work, asses your skills and talents. If you are skillful and have the talent, then you may need to just get out there more. Do more networking, ask family and friends if they know anyone needing a website, talk to local businesses, reach out to design agencies, reply to tons of classified ads frequently. Make unsolicited call, send emails, stand in front of a supermarket and embarrass your self with a cardboard sign that advertises your services (if that's what it takes). 

It's a numbers game. In e-commerce there's something called a conversion rate. Converts are the website visitors that actually buy something from the website, not just a site visitor who stops by to look. A good conversion ratio is between .5% and 1%. That means that for every 200 site visitors only 2 of them will buy something. The same idea applies to getting paying gigs. Have you offered your services to 200 people this week? If so, maybe you'll pick up a gig or two. If not, hustle. Reply to 20 classified ads a day, five days a week. That's 100 people who know you now. Go out into your community and find another 100. Maybe that means sending unsolicited emails and making phone calls, maybe it means stoping by the shops that you like. Go to book stores and libraries and slip your biz card into the how to build website books. 

If you want some help, send me a list of your skills and some examples of your work. I'll keep you in mind when I or a client needs someone with your skills. If you have any questions, I'm happy answer them over skype, email, this forum, etc.

Some good resources to consider: 

Marketing Without Advertising: Easy Ways to Build a Business Your Customers Will Love and Recommend

177 Mental Toughness Secrets of the World Class

Business Lessons for Entrepreneurs

Change Anything: The New Science of Personal Success

Mind Performance Hacks: Tips & Tools for Overclocking Your Brain

http://fundersandfounders.com

[MatthewSchenker]

Greetings,

This is a sore topic because -- for some crazy reason -- two potential jobs in the past week slipped away from me: one to Drupal and one to WordPress.  In both cases, the client was ready to move forward and I had the scheme for the sites laid out.  Then they got ideas about the "other" CMSs and just did not believe that sites could be created more rapidly and better in ProcessWire, with more design and administrative customization now and in the future, and with better security.  The sheer bulk of Drupal and WordPress became their overpowering argument.

It hurts...

I think this question becomes easier for those of us in the following two scenarios:

1. You already have a successful independent career as a developer and your portfolio convinces clients to use your system of choice

2. You work for an agency and have successfully convinced your bosses to use ProcessWire instead of one of the "other" CMSs

For those of us who are in the middle (you're an independent, still building your clientele) it can be very frustrating to lose jobs to systems that you just know are inferior.  I'm not going back to Joomla/Drupal/WordPress.  But I'm not sure what the solution is for this dilemma.

As a side-note: the more I use ProcessWire, the more I am convinced that the comparison we should promote is NOT ProcessWire vs "The Big Three." I think the comparison we need to make is ProcessWire vs PHP frameworks like CodeIgniter, Cake, and Yii.  Of course, this would mean re-structuring the messages from the site and what gets presented first (API or admin back end).  This is probably a separate discussion, which I would really like to have!

Thanks,

Matthew

[WhyProcessWire]

Madam / Sir,

I'm a small-to-medium scale website developer and I started out using wordpress and joomla. Then I took a big step and tried Drupal 7. It was hard going but having finished my first really responsive "big" website (an e-learning platform with a multitude of users) I always wonder if there might be a better CMS in the internet universe. That's how I found this discussion (I entered the phrase "Better than Drupal" into Google ...)

I'm not afraid of coding as long as I find some hints on the web that I'm on the right track. That's what made Drupal 7 the means of choice in my case for if I need to implement some special functionality, there was always someone out there who had the same issue and at least a partial solution.

How is this with Processwire?

* Say, I need a special content which can only be viewed by people who know a password but don't have to be registered with the site?

* And only on this special content type the users knowing the password are allowed to answer comments of other users? 

(These were requirements by a free learning association funded by the bavarian government [yes, I'm bavarian].)

And by altering the great theme "Corolla" a bit (by moving the logo into the navigation block) I got a responsive theme working

from wide-screen (1145px) to small-screen (200px) without looking cheesy in any of the intermediate resolution.

It took me about six month to get there but now it works quite well.

My questions are (besides the ones above marked with "*"):

1) What literature is to be had on Processwire which can bring me up to speed in a very short time?

2) How big and friendly is the community. (The German Drupal community is rude and and acting aloof, the English-speaking community is very polite and helpful especially the maintainer of the superfish module)?

3) Are there responsive Processwire themes and which ones are the most modification-friendly?

4) What is the nearest equivalent to the Drupal module "Views"?

5) Is there a module like "Webform" for Drupal?

6) And: within the European Union ("EU") - bavaria is unfortunately part of the EU (and Germany for that matter) - there is an "EU Cookie Guideline". When this guideline raised its ugly head there were about four Drupal modules I could choose from which addressed said EU red tape. How are things handled with Processwire if this or other bureaucratic obstacles crop up suddenly?

7) This WYSIWYG editor I'm using right now is CKEditor or am I wrong?

8) How about internationalization and translations with Processwire?

Best regards from the post-Oktoberfest Bavaria

(I didn't have time to go there this year, alas)

WhyProcessWire

[pwired]

At MatthewSchenker and especially sshaw, thanks for both your honest and open replies 39 and 38 that I copied out and saved in my notes. It does always good when reading about the person behind the coder, dealing with the real life side of a website and not just with the pw tech side of a website. As economy out there is slowing down and getting less paid in mainstream jobs, economy on the internet is on the rise. So my goal is to shift my income to the internet. I hear some people already talking about creating a compensating pension from the internet through building a lot of websites during 5 or 10 years.

 It's a numbers game. In e-commerce there's something called a conversion rate. A good conversion ratio is between .5% and 1%.

Must be true. That's exactly what a seller told me once who worked in the same company I worked for before.

while you are thinking about prices in the supermarket, elec, gas, rent, etc. your perception shifts to fear and scarcity it takes practice to correct thought patterns that aren't serving you.

While I already heard about this from motivational speakers on youtube, I really needed to read this in a website building context.

I always struggle with the concept of perception and getting it to work in my favor. Many times I self sabotage my own efforts. Not communicating in the right way with the market, opportunities and clients/customers.

Sometimes you need to read something you already know in a different way/context from somebody in the same field to actually make it work for you. Especially when you are stuck in a tunnel vision on the economy and suffer from anxiety disorders.

 Go to book stores and libraries and slip your biz card into the how to build website books.

Excellent tip, thanks !!

 Have you offered your services to 200 people this week? Reply to 20 classified ads a day, five days a week. That's 100 people who know you now.

Very motivational, yes simply must work !

 If you have any questions, I'm happy answer them. If you want some help, send me a list of your skills and some examples of your work.

Thanks for that offer and hope you will stay around on this forum long enough for me asking my questions. Also thanks for those links to resources for the non tech side but, the "real life side" of building websites and creating your own economy.

[BUCKHORN]

Greetings,

This is a sore topic because -- for some crazy reason -- two potential jobs in the past week slipped away from me: one to Drupal and one to WordPress. 

Hi Matthew, gosh that's rough isn't it. I've been there before (as I share below). However I don't believe you lost the gigs to WP or Drupal. I think you lost the gigs, because you didn't provide a service that your clients wanted. And... You assumed you knew what was best for your client, when they specifically told you what they felt was best. You were probably correct in your assessment of their technical needs, but I can't imagine you would have a good understanding of their needs from a larger business perspective without having worked for/in that business for a few years. 

Last Jan. I had a 12 month contract for $48K to build/upgrade an existing Drupal site and to help build a foundation that would help them bring in more revenue. While I was doing a great job for them, I was focused on the bigger picture, the needs and demands of the business. I should have been focused on the "wants" of the clients, because they terminated the contract and I took a $35K hit to my income this year. They canned me for the same reason you didn't get those gigs, I wasn't providing them what they wanted. They couldn't understand their "needs", because they didn't have the experience of growing an online business. So from their perspective, they were paying good money and not getting what they wanted. They had no idea what I was actually doing for them. Imagine going to a fast food restaurant for a burger and having the cashier say, sir, your overweight, I know you really want this burger, but trust me I know what's best for you and what you "need" is a salad. You can buy the salad, but the burger is not on the menu. This is essentially why we both lost our gigs. 

I'd guess over 85% of the websites are powered by WP or Drupal. That means 85% of the people who need web work need Drupal or Wordpress services. You can choose to only support PW, but now you are trying to sell services to a fraction of the remaining 15% which is going to be difficult. PW is new, we are early adopters, it will take at least five more years before PW gains traction (and much longer to start taking market share away from Drupal & WP, though I'm confident this will happen).

Right now, you should be supporting WP and Drupal, but start positioning yourself to offer PW services when the demand is greater. I'm only selling PW to people who trust my judgement implicitly. They are sold on me, they really don't care what platform they use, because they trust me so it's an easy sell. I'm not selling PW to new clients unless I can show them a side by side price comparison between WP/Drupal and PW. That's an easier sell. They don't want to understand how the technology is better, they want to know what features they will be getting and at what cost (e.g. contact form, blog, fb integration, etc.). If they can get more bang for their buck with PW, they may go for it. 

The key to selling services... don't "sell" people anything they don't want or aren't asking for (I'd change my strategy for products). It really couldn't be easier. If you are "convincing" someone, you aren't selling. Just listen to what they want and give them a price. If you don't provide the service, this is your opportunity to provide something of value to them, find a qualified person who does and connect them. They will leave the experience with a good impression of you and will tell others about you or come back later when their needs change. You can also take on the project and hire someone else to do the work (if you don't have the skills, or if you are like me and don't want to use Drupal anymore). If you do this, you'll need to take a percentage for your salary (now as a project manager) and a percentage needs to go back into your business to help you grow the biz. The rest goes to your developer.

I also do passive selling. So back to your scenario, in that case I would have sold them the Drupal or WP site and I would also mention to them that I provide other services that they may be interested in utilizing. I don't do this with any expectation of actually selling them something "today". I just let them know what I offer, so that when the time comes, they think of me. For example, after the successful launch of their website and when my client is ecstatic with my work, I may mention that I provide ongoing SEO and marketing strategies to help grow traffic and revenue. I don't even ask if they are interested, I simply say, "Keep me in mind if you ever need SEO". You'd be surprised. SEO may be not be on their list of priorities, but when it is, they think... "I need SEO, and I already know and have a relationship with someone who's offering these services". 

I do like your strategy about positioning PW against PHP Frameworks, because it's a product best suited for developers (right now). This tagline is very similar, but would do just that. ProcessWire is a RAD PHP content management framework that helps developers build better custom websites and applications faster and more securely. That being said though, I trust Ryan, I don't know where he wants to take PW or who his target demographic is. I can't even begin to know if this is a good idea without getting the full picture from Ryan. 

Same offer I made to pwired goes for everyone here. You are welcome to send me your skills and work examples and when I have a client that needs your skills, I'll reach out. I'm here to help and we can all be more successful by working together. If you have questions, get in touch. 

[BUCKHORN]

Thanks for that offer and hope you will stay around on this forum long enough for me asking my questions. Also thanks for those links to resources for the non tech side but, the "real life side" of building websites and creating your own economy.

Thanks pwired! I'm glad you found some of this useful and didn't take offense to my directness. There are so many smart people here and they are very willing to help. It's a fantastic community. I do plan to be around awhile. I really believe in Ryan and as we all know PW is a superior product. I've used literally everything and this PW is number one in my book.

Many times I self sabotage my own efforts.

Yes! I hear you. Like most people, I do this too! This is probably the only barrier to anyone's success. Everything else is simply a problem to be solved. 

Sometimes you need to read something you already know in a different way/context from somebody in the same field to actually make it work for you. Especially when you are stuck in a tunnel vision on the economy and suffer from anxiety disorders.

Hey, I really feel for you regarding the anxiety disorders. I know from first hand experience how difficult that is. If you stay on the path you are on, one of personal growth and increased awareness, maybe like me you'll find some relief from your anxiety. Personal adversity is a gift. I've gone though such difficult times in my life, and that adversity helped me so much... I don't want to re-experience those hardships, but I wouldn't go back and trade it if I could, those experiences have been invaluable to my personal growth and have made me a stronger more capable person. 

I really appreciate your willingness to discuss topics like anxiety and the tunnel vision. I think this is important, because it helps connect people. I'm sure many of us can relate to these topics and have had some experience with them. It's nice to be reminded that I'm not the only person on this planet with difficulties. We all struggle with something and we aren't alone in that way.

[MatthewSchenker]

Greetings,

sshaw: your last post is interesting and I am glad we can share experiences on what works and what doesn't work.

The only spot where I would correct you is where you say this: "I think you lost the gigs, because you didn't provide a service that your clients wanted."

This definitely has happened. But I have put such experiences to rest long ago. It used to be, if a client came to me with a WP or a Drupal site I would try to convince them to make a switch to the framework I was using. It often worked, and I successfully moved some people from one system to another. But in the past couple of years, I have stopped that approach. These days, I am more likely to say that "this is the system I use, so if you want Drupal or WordPress, you should call someone else."

The only time I still get caught in this is when the client is open to new ideas and listens to proposals, completely agnostic about one system over another. Then at some point they come to me asking about WordPress. Often, but not always, they choose to go with WordPress. If they had said that up front, there would be no discussion. This just happens to be a bad couple of weeks!

The issue is, people start off the discussion about building a website without knowing much, then in the process they start doing some research. Of course, most Google searches they do on building websites are going to point them to WordPress. As I said, it then becomes a matter of explaining that bulk does not equal better.

Thanks,

Matthew

[BUCKHORN]

Say, I need a special content which can only be viewed by people who know a password but don't have to be registered with the site? And only on this special content type the users knowing the password are allowed to answer comments of other users?

This is probably easy enough to do with a cookie or session, but it's not supported out of the box. You would create a login page, which is just a basic page. Then you do most of the work in the template file using traditional php. You can add a password input field and set the cooke if the user logs in successfully. Then on your templates for the protected content, you can check to see if the cookie exists and allow comments if it does. You can also make this into a module, but initially you won't know how to do so.

1) What literature is to be had on Processwire which can bring me up to speed in a very short time?

Limited documentation compared to Drupal. It will take 2-3 months for you to get a handle on PW if you understand oop programming, typical patterns/paradigms and frameworks. Compared to Drupal which is really a three year learning curve, that's not bad. If you come from Drupal or WP though, those will help you a little. If you use php frameworks and/or jquery, PW is as easy as it gets.

2) How big and friendly is the community. (The German Drupal community is rude and and acting aloof, the English-speaking community is very polite and helpful especially the maintainer of the superfish module)?

Small, but friendly. 

3) Are there responsive Processwire themes and which ones are the most modification-friendly?

there are no themes for PW, however I'll be releasing a theme framework soon. All of my themes are responsive html5. Super modification friendly. So much easier than WP even.

4) What is the nearest equivalent to the Drupal module "Views"?

templates. much easier and faster.

5) Is there a module like "Webform" for Drupal?

yes, it's $40 USD I think. 

6) And: within the European Union ("EU") - bavaria is unfortunately part of the EU (and Germany for that matter) - there is an "EU Cookie Guideline". When this guideline raised its ugly head there were about four Drupal modules I could choose from which addressed said EU red tape. How are things handled with Processwire if this or other bureaucratic obstacles crop up suddenly?

This is specific to your needs, so I don't think PW is going to address this. You have full control to do what you want with PW though. It doesn't get in your way.

7) This WYSIWYG editor I'm using right now is CKEditor or am I wrong?

I think this is tinymce, however there's a module for cke and it works quite nicely with some advantages over tiny in my opinion. 

8) How about internationalization and translations with Processwire?

As good as any. Translations work nicely, but many third party modules aren't translatable (you can fix this easily inside the module and submit your work back to the owner).

[Nico Knoll]

Hey,

the German developer here are really nice and there's even a German Processwire sub-side: http://de.processwire.com

By the way - I'm from Berlin <3

Gruß,

Nico

[BUCKHORN]

These days, I am more likely to say that "this is the system I use, so if you want Drupal or WordPress, you should call someone else."

That's a good point. There's no point to wasting time or trying to sell something to someone who already has their mind set on WP. If you are dead set on only using PW, then focus on identifying the type of client who will appreciate why you have chosen to work with PW exclusively (put this philosophy on your about page, but don't get too techy). I would look into providing services to developers, agencies, CTOs, and entrepreneurs, (I fall into three of those category's hint, hint). Folks who have already been through the process of building a website may also be a better fit for your model. 

That being said, what's the reasoning behind this approach? Seems to me you are choosing a difficult path and your client acquisition costs will increase while your profit (if any) will go down. I can't imagine this model generating more than $65k per year for a sole proprietor. You'll be lowering your client lifetime value too, because you won't be able to retain your clients as long (they will need a service you don't provide and will eventually leave). This is a problem, because a profitable services business is built off compounding revenue from existing clients who need ongoing services, not individual gigs from new clients or one off gigs/clients. 

The only time I still get caught in this is when the client is open to new ideas and listens to proposals, completely agnostic about one system over another. Then at some point they come to me asking about WordPress. Often, but not always, they choose to go with WordPress. If they had said that up front, there would be no discussion. This just happens to be a bad couple of weeks!

That time you spent and were not compensated for gets added into your client acquisition costs. Letting just two clients slip through your fingers, because you didn't want to provide them a WP site, probably cost you $10-$30K over a period of 3 years (just a guess, it's probably higher). I'm not any happier about coding in WP or Drupal, which is why I'm willing to hire a developer for this task (and no task is beneath me so I'll still use WP and Drupal). In that scenario I get paid to be a project manager and interface with the client, some money goes back into the business and the rest goes to my developer. I know the amount of money I'll make on the job is much less when I hire out, but I'd rather have a smaller percentage of something than 100% of nothing (and let's not forget about the additional services the client will purchase throughout the years).

The issue is, people start off the discussion about building a website without knowing much, then in the process they start doing some research. Of course, most Google searches they do on building websites are going to point them to WordPress. As I said, it then becomes a matter of explaining that bulk does not equal better.

Are your clients paying you to educate them? If not, limit the amount of time you spend with a potential client until you have a signed agreement. Put some educational material on your website that you can steer them too (maybe also include a two minute video where you explain what PW is why people should care). Not only will this build up your SEO, but you will save time by not having to educate every new client over and over again. That gets expensive and as you have recently experienced. It's also deflating when you spend your time providing value to someone and they ditch you just before go time. Chalking it up to a bad week is commendable. Sometimes I really beat myself up over things like this, when in fact it was just that, a bad week.   

Don't forget to consider your client's experience. The better their experience the more likely they will hire you, refer their friends, and come back for repeat business. Make it easy for them. Sometimes low tech clients are overwhelmed by the tech talk. Even if you think you are dumbing it down, you are probably assuming they have some at least some tech knowledge that they do not. Sometimes they are too embarrassed to tell you they don't know what you are talking about (they don't want to sound dumb). Other times, perhaps more often than not, they may be afraid you'll take advantage of them. With new clients not enough trust has been established and they have no way to validate the information you are giving them. When they try to do so, they use google or talk to their friends and in this case, you are right, they are going to find a lot of info on WP and feel much more comfortable going that route.

Here's a good resource that I review often: http://freelanceswitch.com/clients/12-breeds-of-client-and-how-to-work-with-them/

Another thing to consider when reading my responses. They are tailored for today. In the years to come PW will gain traction and the word will get out there. You won't have some of the issues you are having now, because the work you do will be in demand.

In the meantime, if you want to convert clients to PW incentivize them, but don't use manipulation, fear, coercion, pushiness, etc. I just sold a PW site to someone for $1,200. The actual cost was $5,700, but the client was rewarded for taking a risk and putting their trust in me. You may try offering a 100% satisfaction guarantee or a substantial discount. 

[apeisa]

I do like your strategy about positioning PW against PHP Frameworks, because it's a product best suited for developers (right now). This tagline is very similar, but would do just that. ProcessWire is a RAD PHP content management framework that helps developers build better custom websites and applications faster and more securely. That being said though, I trust Ryan, I don't know where he wants to take PW or who his target demographic is. I can't even begin to know if this is a good idea without getting the full picture from Ryan.

PW is defintely more a CMF than a CMS. As a marketing strategy it is difficult to say which way is better.

For technical people I have explained that PW is Django of PHP world. 

[WillyC]

what.cliente ask.4 drupal or wordprass ?

   cliente ask 2 be able do this.or that or other

  not what cms u use

 cliente.want to do some thing

web devaloper is 1 to say.what to do with

    web devaloper is expert on.tool not cliente

 unloss yur client.is also web devaloper

        love -willyc

[renobird]

WillyC has a great point.