If you had to use another system....

[onjegolders]

As someone who has only been in the web design industry for just over a year, I've spent much of that time learning. First of all, learning HTML, CSS, Jquery and then a very in-depth look at content management systems. I've been back and forth over so many of them.

I finally settled on ExpressionEngine as it seemed to suit my way of approaching web sites - I code the whole thing in a static form, get it looking exactly how I want and then go about populating the content dynamically.

Despite a few minor annoyances, I only really left EE as it wasn't viable for someone at my stage to fork out for a license for each project.

When I found Processwire, having just learned very basic PHP, I was amazed at what could be done, it was (and is) seemingly an open-source, more flexible version of EE. I think it's fair to say that for any site that I can code 100% myself, I have found my favourite tool. I honestly can't see what could be better.

I've already built a good few sites with PW and it was a purely pleasurable experience and I hope to build many more to come. There is however a need for me, a relatively junior coder, to find an alternative tool for some websites.

The problem is, for me to hand-code sites that require extra functionality is not an economically viable choice right now. I find myself needing to be able to add 3rd party functionality to the very strong core that PW's API provides me with.

I would love to be able to build my site how I want, pulling in the data through PW's API and then when I need to add newsletter functionality or RSS feeds or user systems for there to be a tried and tested add-on to be able to harness. I just don't have the know-how nor the application to be able to build them myself (at least not for the time being).

I realize that this is something that PW is building towards with some very talented developers already contributing some modules but I'm not sure whether it is even in Ryan's intentions to keep building PW this way or whether it's main aim is to remain light and powerful and to let other systems take that approach.

The one other system which seemed to offer real power but also incredible amounts of third-party added functionality was Drupal. I had already seen enough of Wordpress and Joomla to know that I didn't really want to be using them on a daily basis but I'd always been put off Drupal by its reputation as a complex system to theme.

When I started to see some of its power though, I did get excited. RSS feeds were getting automatically populated, lots of top government sites had been built with it, if I needed to add modules, there were thousands of them - here was a proper, powerful system that I was willing to invest time into in order to harness its power so that I could build extensive sites in less time than it would take for me to hand-code.

But by God it's hard work, I suppose there are very good reasons that it generates its own markup but after spending so much time with PW and EE before that, I find myself wondering why I can't just use the markup I want. I wanted to try and build a site based on the Twitter Bootstrap but no dice. Everything is rendered, there are fifteen wrapping divs around every element, just try not to "view source". It is no doubt though, very powerful.

Of course, I could just keep my head down and carry on slogging through, but I feel as though I am at a tipping point.

The reason I am writing here in the PW forums is that I have huge respect for this community, I do genuinely value all of your input, and I do honestly see myself as a continuing member of it.

I wonder if PW will be able over the next few years to develop enough modules to mean being able to work with one system alone for most site builds.

Failing that, do any of you have any thoughts on where you would look? A system with plenty of modules that is easier to use your own markup? Or just some general advice from anyone who's had the same questions or been at the same point in their development?

Thanks in advance and sorry if this is out of place.

[Soma]

I would choose ProcessWire. Sorry I'm too biased.

[renobird]

I would suggest you take a look at Textpattern for the smaller builds where you need a stable of plugins that can do a variety of what you mentioned above.

It uses a tagging language much like EE, although I personally find Textpattern's a bit easier.

I've built dozens of sites with Textpattern, and still continue to use it for a variety of projects.

Good luck.

[onjegolders]

Thanks Soma! I also would choose PW where possible but as I'm not a developer I'm looking at alternatives for where there is a need for added functionality...

I would suggest you take a look at Textpattern for the smaller builds where you need a stable of plugins that can do a variety of what you mentioned above.

It uses a tagging language much like EE, although I personally find Textpattern's a bit easier.

I've built dozens of sites with Textpattern, and still continue to use it for a variety of projects.

Good luck.

Thanks Renobird, I have looked briefly, a couple of times at TextPattern and am aware of its loyal following but was always put off by the fact that it appears (at least from the website) an aging product. It doesn't give you the impression that it is a modern, serious system but I realise that looks aren't everything and I don't want to be rude about an open-source product that people are putting their time into.

Is that aging look misleading? Is it really very powerful? Could you give me a quick rundown? Thanks

[renobird]

Don't be scared off by the look — it might look a tad dated, but there is a very active and helpful community.

The admin can be themed to look a bit more modern (keep in mind I did that nearly 4 years ago).

There is a lot going on behind the scenes with development, and I think they are well on their way to releasing a complete overhaul (TXP5).

I can't recommend it enough if you are looking for solution that offers a tagging language and lots of ready-to-use plugins.

[onjegolders]

First off Reno, very nice looking site you have there! The admin theme you did, certainly makes it look a completely different system too.

Sorry to be annoying but could you give me a comparison with PW. I'm really happy with how PW handles my content and I'd be hard pressed to change from using it unless it's for something different. Does Textpattern offer reliable modules? What is it's limit for what you could use it for?

Thanks again!

[renobird]

It's a completely different approach. PW is built around "custom content types" by design. You can have whatever fields you want.

Textpattern (like a lot of other CMS's) is built around the concept of an "article" or "post". There are a lot of plugins (modules) for Textpattern, and some of them are super powerful. (smd_calendar for example). I built nearly every site you see in my portfolio with TXP, before I discovered PW. There's something to be said for that.

All that said, I honestly think you should keep your head down with PW and get through the PHP learning curve. PW's approach is unlike any other system, so if you are happy with how it handles content, then you are in the right place. And remember, every time you learn something new with PHP, that's a skill that has value and can translate to other environments — learning the ins-outs of a tagging language is great, but it doesn't lead anywhere other than to mastery of that particular system.

[onjegolders]

Thanks, I'm not really put off by the PHP learning curve per se, I've thoroughly enjoyed using PHP with Processwire and it makes me want to learn more and you're totally right about it being a transferable skill.

It's more a case of - I love using PW's API to bring in my data from the database and having complete control of the markup but if I want to add additional functionality, I don't want to have to reinvent the wheel, I don't want to have to code an entire module when I don't have the expertise or even really, the capacity to do so.

I certainly wouldn't give up having custom content types though, any system I used would have to incorporate that. Drupal seems like it has everything I need to create more complex sites but I just wish I could control the markup in a way that's even half as good as PW (or EE for that matter).

[pideluxe]

Another nice system i used for some projects is the Contao-CMS (fka TypoLight). It uses a hierachical approach like Processwire and has some nice modules already built in core. Theses include a newsletter, a calendar, asset-managment, a form generator and a theme-manager. You can even built new themes by scratch and editing CSS-rules in the web-backend. It has a built-in html-css-framework, which you can use, but aren't bound to.

There are many extension available ranging from integrating videos to full-featured shop-systems. The extensions can be installed via the web-backend directly.

Content is organized in pages, each page can have several columns and each column can hold several parts of content which can be of different types. E.g. you have the bodycopy in the main column and the output of the news-module and the latest comments in the sidebar-column. This can be changed per page or per template.

You can change the output of the content by editing so called templates for each piece of content. You can have several different templates for one content-type, e.g. you can have one template which outputs only the headlines of the latest news and another which shows the full news.

[onjegolders]

Thanks Pideluxe, think I have come across Contao before but there was something stopping me from exploring any further - can't remember what though.

I realise that there probably isn't an all-encompassing CMS out there and there is so much of PW I would be loathe to give up on. Ryan really has created the most incredible system and the community is so helpful. I also don't really want to go on another CMS merry-go-round - I get the feeling that if I do end up using one, it will be one I have already looked at briefly. This was the case with PW.

[ryan]

I want to add in that ProcessWire does have a pretty nice RSS feed module included in the core. There is a good example of using it in the Blog profile in the posts.php template. I mention it only because it was the first item on your list of things PW doesn't have.

As far as the quantity and scope of modules go, that's more an observation about the age of the platform than anything else. Had ProcessWire been open source since the early 2000s then I'm sure you'd find the same depth of modules that you do with the likes of Drupal and WordPress. And I actually think our plugin/module system is far better than theirs too. Growth in the quantity and scope of both free and commercially supported modules is something I would expect to happen with ProcessWire over time, so stay tuned.

You've correctly identified some of the major compromises that come with a markup generating CMS like Drupal. I don't like that aspect of it any more than you do. But to the positive points of that approach, I think it gets to the heart of what you are talking about. Something that generates markup is by nature going to be able to provide more ready-to-go, plug-n-play functionality than something that doesn't. The compromise is that you don't have much control over that markup, and the markup is usually a mess. But if it's doing everything else you want, then it still may be worthwhile. As designer/developers we are perfectionists and we take our markup/code as seriously as the visuals, so it's hard to look past the mess and the inherent drawbacks. But you get a nice reward for putting up with this mess, which is lots of bolt-on functionality that you don't have to write any code for. It's a compromise like anything else.

Unfortunately I've been unable to keep up with Drupal in my toolbox. I've used it on a couple sites, and have had to continue maintaining them. I was able to get past the wretched smell in the code after a lot of effort. But I absolutely dread doing any kind of administrative task or development task in the system. It's a giant time suck that I really don't like using. At the same time, I recognize that many enjoy using it, and I have a good respect for Drupal and all that is possible with it. So if you've found yourself liking it and it's answering some needs you have, add it to your toolbox (alongside ProcessWire). But only use Drupal when you have to.

If you don't want to go very far with code, then I think it's good to keep one markup-generating CMS (like Drupal) in your toolbox for the times when it fits. And only use them when they are going to save real time. Use ProcessWire for everything else. Though for those that like working with code, I wouldn't bother with any markup generating CMS, as I think once you know what you are doing with code, they end up costing, rather than saving time.

Also want to bring up the other one you mentioned, Expression Engine. There are some quality add-ons out there for it. If it's doing something that lines up with a given project, go for it. If you are doing work where people pay you for it, the cost of EE and any add-ons should be a non-issue. Your time is worth much more than the cost of these things. You should be passing along the costs of anything you purchase to the client. For me, I can't stand using EE any more than I can Drupal. But if you can stand it, then use it in the situations where it makes sense. EE at least gives you far better markup control than Drupal.

[onjegolders]

I want to add in that ProcessWire does have a pretty nice RSS feed module included in the core. There is a good example of using it in the Blog profile in the posts.php template. I mention it only because it was the first item on your list of things PW doesn't have.

As far as the quantity and scope of modules go, that's more an observation about the age of the platform than anything else. Had ProcessWire been open source since the early 2000s then I'm sure you'd find the same depth of modules that you do with the likes of Drupal and WordPress. And I actually think our plugin/module system is far better than theirs too. Growth in the quantity and scope of both free and commercially supported modules is something I would expect to happen with ProcessWire over time, so stay tuned.

You've correctly identified some of the major compromises that come with a markup generating CMS like Drupal. I don't like that aspect of it any more than you do. But to the positive points of that approach, I think it gets to the heart of what you are talking about. Something that generates markup is by nature going to be able to provide more ready-to-go, plug-n-play functionality than something that doesn't. The compromise is that you don't have much control over that markup, and the markup is usually a mess. But if it's doing everything else you want, then it still may be worthwhile. As designer/developers we are perfectionists and we take our markup/code as seriously as the visuals, so it's hard to look past the mess and the inherent drawbacks. But you get a nice reward for putting up with this mess, which is lots of bolt-on functionality that you don't have to write any code for. It's a compromise like anything else.

Unfortunately I've been unable to keep up with Drupal in my toolbox. I've used it on a couple sites, and have had to continue maintaining them. I was able to get past the wretched smell in the code after a lot of effort. But I absolutely dread doing any kind of administrative task or development task in the system. It's a giant time suck that I really don't like using. At the same time, I recognize that many enjoy using it, and I have a good respect for Drupal and all that is possible with it. So if you've found yourself liking it and it's answering some needs you have, add it to your toolbox (alongside ProcessWire). But only use Drupal when you have to.

If you don't want to go very far with code, then I think it's good to keep one markup-generating CMS (like Drupal) in your toolbox for the times when it fits. And only use them when they are going to save real time. Use ProcessWire for everything else. Though for those that like working with code, I wouldn't bother with any markup generating CMS, as I think once you know what you are doing with code, they end up costing, rather than saving time.

Also want to bring up the other one you mentioned, Expression Engine. There are some quality add-ons out there for it. If it's doing something that lines up with a given project, go for it. If you are doing work where people pay you for it, the cost of EE and any add-ons should be a non-issue. Your time is worth much more than the cost of these things. You should be passing along the costs of anything you purchase to the client. For me, I can't stand using EE any more than I can Drupal. But if you can stand it, then use it in the situations where it makes sense. EE at least gives you far better markup control than Drupal.

Thank you Ryan for such an eloquent reply, you're totally right that if Processwire can be this good after such a short space of time, in a few years it could be incredibly inclusive.

It's true what you say about the trade-off between markup-generating and non-markup generating systems. I guess we all hope that a great non-markup generating system such as Processwire can grow to encompass almost the same level of functionality as the Drupal's of this world.

[DaveP]

Having used Joomla (and Mambo before it), Wordpress, CMSMS and others in the past (and CodeIgniter if you need a nuke to crack a walnut), there is one real problem with the markup-generating systems, and that is that once you install a few extras, the markup becomes hideous. I can't remember who said that if the amount of markup is more than the actual content in your source, then you have a problem, but they were surely right.

That, for me, is the great strength of PW, that I have absolute control over what is sent to the browser. Just look at the source of an average Wordpress blog, and then look at the sparse but functional source of (for example) one of Ryan's PW powered sites (http://processwire.c...tes/#entry12888 has three excellent examples). For me, a page that renders quicker in the browser and is easier for search engines to understand must be beneficial.

That said, there might be scope for a few output 'helpers'...?

[onjegolders]

Thanks Dave we can definitely agree on how much better it is to have complete control, and I feel real nerdy joy when I view source on a site I've built with PW!

I wonder whether it is an absolute need for the big modular based systems to have so much markup. I can understand it with things like Wordpress but Drupal isn't really aimed at novices so it seems strange that it's markup is so out of your control.

Does it pretty much stand that current PW users are either very competent developers who can build everything themselves or are greener people like me who can only use it to a certain extent before needing to look elsewhere for bolt-on added functionality?

[yellowled]

I have used a lot of CMS in the past, but it seems I have developed a very special taste which narrows down the list of candidates pretty quickly.

1. If the CMS generates markup, it has to be editable. Easily. Preferably it has a "no default markup mode" or something. Markup's my job.
   
2. If the CMS has templates, they should have a physical representation, i.e. template files, not just templates stored in the DB. If I can't edit it with my favorite editor, it's not a template.
   
3. If the CMS comes with a CSS framework, it has to have an option to disable that framework. I want to be able to use "my" CSS.
   
4. If the CMS uses a default JS library in the frontend, it better be jQuery. I don't care what you use in the backend, but I don't get MooTools and all that other stuff. If you use ExtJS, you're out. It's slooooow.
   
5. Open Source only. Paying a suitable fee is okay, but you better let me have a look at your code.
   

That being said, I have seriously evaluated, tried and use(d) MODx, Contao, Drupal, Perch and ProcessWire over the last 2 years or something. (I don't count blog systems as CMS, not even Wordpress. If I need a blog engine, I use Serendipity.)

MODx, Contao and Perch all either collide with one or more of the 5 points above and/or have made some weird development or license choices I don't like. So I guess if I had to use another CMS, I'd go with Drupal. (I hope I never have to, though.)

[onjegolders]

Hi thanks for that Yellowled, I have to say I think I share most of your criteria.

Perch I think does a simple job really well I'm led to believe, I like the way they present their product.

I'm surprised that you'd choose Drupal given your 5 points, I would say that Drupal makes it very hard to control your code (or at least I found it hard).

I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on MODx and Contao though, and where the differ from Processwire.

Thanks

[yellowled]

As for Perch, yes, they are doing a great job, not only in presenting their product. Given the fact that it's maintained by two people, Perch is just great, especially in terms of support. However, it's not really suitable for bigger sites as it gets rather complicated to add and handle a large number of editable fields, which are the key ingredient of Perch sites. Still a good option for small sites, especially for clients which are not very experienced in using a CMS.

MODx is huge in every aspect. Very powerful, but also very complicated in some areas. Setting up users and permissions is especially painful. It has the "total freedom of markup, CSS and JS" factor, but it also has an ExtJS backend which is anything but fast and lean. In fact, MODx is pretty close to PW in my opinion, but PW makes almost everything which is painful in MODx easier and better.

As for Contao, I'm using it in 3 projects, but I won't use it for new projects. I'd still recommend it for non-professionals which are looking for an easy-to-use CMS, but it doesn't work well for me because of the template system and integrated CSS framework. It's just too much work to customize even a fresh install to the point where I can work with it the way I like to do. I get why it's being developed in the direction of a "better Joomla", and it's probably the right choice for their target audience, but I'm just not part of that audience.

I haven't really worked much with Drupal. I like it a lot better since v7, but I always feel it's a bit clumsy. You asked for the CMS we'd use if we had to choose something other than PW, that's why I mentioned it – I don't have many reasons not to use it, and the ones I have are probably related to the fact that I don't know it very well. Also probably takes a looong time to get to know it really well, which is something I never had the time or patience to do.

That's actually another area which PW won by a landslide. I have rarely gotten accustomed to a CMS that quickly.

[SiNNuT]

I've used and still use MODx Evolution(v1) and Revolution(v2). I still run a production site on Evolution. This is nothing fancy and i've tried migrating it to MODx Revolution. This was a painful experience.

I totally agree with yellowled, Revolution is powerful and feature-rich. It has some nice add-ons, an underlying framework and orm-like system, xPDO, for making your own modules. But imo things are very complicated and clunky. The back-end is pretty slow (heavy ext.js) and confusing. Clients don't tend to like it. Snippets, chunks, template variables. To understand user management, ACL's and stuff like resource groups you have to be a rocket scientist.

I wouldn't waste time on MODx right now because they kind of acknowledge their mistakes with the announcement of MODx 3.0 for 2013.

[yellowled]

I have kind of lost track on MODx since I discovered PW, but all I'm reading about MODX 3.0 and MODX Cloud doesn't really convince me. It feels like a platform which is technically great is being marketed and maintained in ways which I don't consider "right" for an open source software. There is this little hint of "Yeah, we're open, but in the end we're gonna do it the way we think is right anyway."

[onjegolders]

Thanks Yellow, Sinnut.

ModX was a system I have been looking into a bit. It fits the bill in terms of being non-markup generating.

Is it really that complicated to use? I see a lot of praise from within their own forums (but I guess that's normal...)

Are there any areas where it is more developed than PW?

So if you guys had to pick something that stayed at least quite close to the PW way of controlling markup but also had a large number of modules to be able to add extra functionality? ModX? Drupal? An outsider?

[apeisa]

Silverstripe (http://www.silverstripe.com/) might be interesting for you. And on the other end (something much simpler) is Kirby, which is no-db cms: http://getkirby.com/. It should be pretty easy to get started, since it also has jQuery inspired API: http://getkirby.com/...ent/home/03.jpg

Haven't really tried either of those, but I have heard good things about both.

[diogo]

@apeisa, Kirby looks very nice!

@onjegolders you can also try Pyro http://www.pyrocms.com/

[onjegolders]

Thanks Diogo, I actually looked at pyro before Processwire as it was CI based (I believe) but was put off by a lack of support, lack of a good community like this one

Do you have a different experience?

Apeisa, thanks for the suggestions, I was a bit confused between what was Silverlight and what was the framework but will check out the new version 3. Is it a goos system? Kirby looks interesting, not sure what the implications of no db though are?

[yellowled]

NoDB means that all site content is stored in text files (actually: Markdown files). It works pretty well, but is probably not suited for just any client because they need some way to upload/access said text files on the server, meaning (s)ftp or ssh.

I don't know about the average client you guys have, but I couldn't name any previous or current client who would be comfortable using a text editor and/or (s)ftp/ssh, let alone Markdown syntax. Clients, at least that's my experience, want or prefer a web interface and a WYSIWYG editor.

[onjegolders]

Yeah I've just been looking into it, I'm not sure I see the advantages personally, every web page has its own folder and file? Seems excessive and like you said i don't want my clients handling ftp.

it seems somewhat Processwire-inspired too!