How to convince old client to swith from EE to PW?

[OrganizedFellow]

I have an old client. Several years ago, I built his website for his restaurant/bar, in ExpressionEngine. I used Foundation 2x (pre-responsive trend).

Now my old client writes me and wants to know if I could work for him again.

• opening a new restaurant/bar, so business MUST be good!
• second location is in another city, good for him!
• wants to open the business AND website on December 1.

I have no doubt I can get this done in the next four-five weeks.

BUT

BIG BUT

But I need some selling points to STOP using ExpressionEngine. He's a young guy, so understands about web security, etc.

So this morning I emailed him telling him it would be more expensive than the previous time simply because

• I'd be working with EE and I haven't touched it since over two years ago
• I would have to relearn the CMS, lots has changes in two years
• Over two years, I'm sure there are security updates/upgrades that must be performed first before I can begin work

Switching over the old content to ProcessWire wouldn't really be that hard.

Last time I set up his EE install, there really weren't that many custom fields.

TONS more possibilities await us in ProcessWire.

I'll also have him look over here at their Support Pricing -> https://ellislab.com/support

That should give him a little sticker shock!

[Alexander]

@OrganizedFellow,

maybe you will be able to explain real benefits for business owner like (just for example) better ranking by google, because PW is faster and can be easy adapted for SEO or unreal benefits, like unicorn inhabit inside PW.

[Joss]

Tell him the benefits ....oh, Alexander sort of beat me to it.

But basically, tell him that this time you will be building in ProcessWire because it is what is required now, together with a mobile first website.

Unless he is insisting on using EE, I wouldn't even tell him the pros and cons, just say why PW is ideal, without saying why EE isn't.

As my brother always said (he is the proper salesperson of the family), stick to the plot. If what happened in the past isn't part of the plot, don't go there.

[OrganizedFellow]

Thank you Alexander and Mr. Pirate.

[pwired]

Convincing a client to move from cms x to cms processwire, with the argument that processwire is a better cms,

is an almost impossible thing to do.

Non technical clients are controlled by their subconscious feelings and not at all by their conscious technical knowing.

Technical clients don't like to lose face when it comes on the table having used a lesser cms for all that time.

There is not only the client you have to convince but also his webmaster if he has one and his pseudo tech buddies

he likes to listen to. The best way is to let the client convince him self, if there is enough time. (Usually not)

What also works is bringing in processwire from a different angle, like, "Well Mr. client, having studied what your website

is going to need, processwire would be the best cms for it".

[Martijn Geerts]

Are you willing to build it in an other system then ProcessWire?

[pwired]

Are you willing to build it in an other system then ProcessWire?

Martijn, I can speak only for my self, because other designers/coders are skilled in more than one cms/cmf

and use them mixed for using the right tool for the job that needs to be done.

In my case I am not willing to build it in another system then processwire simply because I have no time

to learn other systems ! Sometimes a client asks me to extend a wordpress or joomla site and I have to

say no to them. I need all my time to learn the pw api plus php and css and hopefully become one day

as good as you are.

[teppo]

The main "selling points" for ProcessWire I've used in the past are flexibility, cost-effectiveness, security, performance and scalability. The order depends on the client and his/her specific situation, but there's always something you can use:

• If the client wants something large or very specific but doesn't have an endless amount of cash to spend, ProcessWire is a very good choice, as it has built-in a lot of common features and the rest (ones that probably won't fit any pre-made solution anyway) are usually much easier to build than with certain other systems.
• If the client isn't entirely sure about his/her needs and/or those needs might change in the future, it's good to explain that with ProcessWire there's always room for growth. I've never, ever said "ProcessWire can't do that" (and probably never will).
• ProcessWire is secure, period. Zero known vulnerabilities, built-in CSRF protection, various security measures against things like cache poisoning and session hijacking, *almost zero possibility for SQL injections*. With or without the buzzwords this should be of interest to the client regardless of their technical know-how.
• ProcessWire comes with a whole collection of native caching methods and has pretty awesome level of performance even without any caching at all. If the client is worried about how the system will hold, toss in ProCache (or simply mention that it's easy to setup later if such a need comes up).
• I've managed sites with tens of thousands of pages and I know that there are a lot bigger sites than that. I'm not sure about EE, but I wouldn't even dream of doing something like that on certain other systems. Not sure if this really applies to your client in this case, but it's good to keep in mind anyway

... and, of course, there's the "it's 100% open source" thing. Many clients seem to value that nowadays.

[pwired]

Teppo: as usual you are communicating from your own professional level to us forum members

where we understand you perfectly.

Now try again with clients who respond to you like: "What, processwire? Never heard about processwire!"

"I want you to do it in wordpress because I know many people who have their website in wordpress"

"Why can't you do it in wordpress for me ?"

Your technical arguments, no matter how correct they are, have zero effect on the feelings of a client.

He is going to respond to you with "yes, yes, yes" making you think it is going to be done in processwire.

Only to find out the next day the client has found somebody else to do it for him in wordpress

because he feels right about wordpress.

[Pete]

Now try again with clients who respond to you like: "What, processwire? Never heard about processwire!"

"I want you to do it in wordpress because I know many people who have their website in wordpress"

"Why can't you do it in wordpress for me ?"

And that is only 1 scenario.

"Dumbing down" Teppo's points to something a non-technical customer will understand a little easier :

• ProcessWire has most common features built-in, custom fields and admin templates are easy to do as well so it can be set up to work around your needs
• ProcessWire is the ideal platform to grow on - there are no roadblocks that can appear in other systems (it's capable of doing almost anything and doesn't mind you changing direction along the way)
• ProcessWire is secure. Never had a security flaw unlike some other systems where they patch for security systems every other month
• ProcessWire is fast - faster with ProCache (the fastest you can technically get!)
• ProcessWire is scalable, so if you need to support hundreds of customer accounts, or run an online ordering system, you can
• ProcessWire is Open Source and well-supported. It keeps costs down and there's an excellent community of developers behind it.

I crossed out bits that I initially wrote that can be skipped as they are a bit negative, but left them there if you want to use them.

As for the "Why can't you do it in Wordpress for me?" I think you answered that in your previous post pwired - if they insist on that then skip the job

The thing a lot of people get hung up on is selling the system. At the end of the day, aren't people hiring us because we're skilled at what we do? If they don't value your knowledge and expertise despite explaining the benefits and want to use something else then you have to make a choice - use a system you don't want to use or turn down the work. To be brutally honest, if they won't listen to you at this stage it's worth considering if that might continue throughout the whole job and sap all the fun out of it for you.

Having worked in retail a long time ago, I disagree with "the customer is always right". I prefer "the customer may have some valid points", but more-so in web development they should be listening to your suggestions. They then make the decision whether to take that advice or not of course, but you've at least done your best up until that point.

---

A day I'll always remember working in retail is the time I was asked by a customer to check if an item of clothing was available in other sizes upstairs, Having just brought out all the sizes we had, I informed him there were no other sizes. He insisted I go and check. I assured him they were all out. He stormed off after telling me that I had lost a sale because I couldn't be bothered checking.

You can't help some people

[teppo]

@pwired: I communicate with clients regularly, and the clients I work with tend to understand common sense. They don't have to be professionals to understand that system X might not be the best choice for them because a) it's not scalable, b) it's not secure, c) it's not powerful or d) it's going to be bloody expensive.

The client does have to trust my word as an expert, though.. and if there's no such trust, the project is pretty much doomed anyway

[Pete]

Teppo's version is shorter than mine

I think a lot of us were timid when we started doing web development - it can feel odd doing a job you enjoy - but at some point it all boils down to you being the expert and the client listening to you.

A really rubbish plumber analogy would be if you were talking to a client and they wanted lead pipe instead of copper, what would you do? A crappy job with lead pipe that would taint their water supply or walk away?

[OrganizedFellow]

Are you willing to build it in an other system then ProcessWire?

OH ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Perhaps WordPress would be a better idea? bwahahaha, nope, just kidding, I'd never consider NOT using ProcessWire.

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EE years years ago was the CMS of choice (for me). I was very active on their forums and loved it. I turned out a few non-profits and several business sites with it - one was e-commerce.

I met Mr. Client when doing a search and asking family/friends about "Opening Soon" type businesses in the area. I moved here from another city and found HIM and approached HIM. He said he liked my enthusiasm and "go gettim" attitude.

I mentioned the cost of the EE commercial license and it was a non-issue for him. Even my own cost (which was the highest I had ever billed).

Now fast forward several years later and I am excited, thrilled, super super enthusiastic to be back on this project!!! Words can not express my joy right now.

I am certain (pretty certain, not fully 100% certain) that he will agree with me when I speak to him about the change.

I've asked that he set up a subdomain for me and server/DB access.

I shall be crying around these parts when I need s'more help

[Pete]

I shall be crying around these parts when I need s'more help

We'll be here with a box of tissues and some kind words. Maybe even some help

[pwired]

The client does have to trust my word as an expert,

Some times a client doesn't even trust you anymore when you come up with a cms they never have heard of.

For them there must be a reason why drupal and wordpress are in the top list and never heard of processwire.

the project is pretty much doomed anyway

Why would that be ? Processwire is not the only cms/cmf out there to realize a project.

[teppo]

@pwired: there seem to be a few misunderstandings here. First of all, if I suggest a specific platform, and explain my choice properly, and that makes the client lose her trust in me, I don't think there ever was any proper trust there. Just like Pete said, you just can't help everyone.

About your other point, I never said that the project is doomed if the client decides against ProcessWire. I said that the project is probably doomed anyway if the client doesn't trust me and my expertise. There's a huge difference there.

If a client approached me and told me that she needs to put a static one-page flyer online, I wouldn't spend a whole lot of time explaining why that flyer should be built using ProcessWire. I'd go with a static page and that's it. Also, if the client requested a huge e-commerce site, I would probably explain that there are other solutions, including various SaaS products, that probably match her needs better.

Being an expert doesn't just mean that you can convince anyone to buy anything. It's about finding solutions, and sometimes the right solution is to let the project (or the client) go

[diogo]

Why would that be ? Processwire is not the only cms/cmf out there to realize a project.

@pwired, Teppo was not talking about the CMS, he was talking about trust.

Edit: oh, it's already answered

[OrganizedFellow]

I kinda sorta plan on building a mini site with PW in a subdomain on his site.

Then show him the back-end differences.

I did lots of work for him that improved the way he added content.

He's a very "visual" person. As long as the back remains easy to navigate and he can quickly/easily add/edit content, I am sure he will like it.

But I want him to see the differences between the two.

I really won't look forward to re-learning EE, and that'll be another keypoint. I last even touched it almost two years ago.

[pwired]

Being an expert doesn't just mean that you can convince anyone to buy anything. It's about finding solutions, and sometimes the right solution is to let the project (or the client) go

Yes, I agree on that one and also what Pete said earlier. You have to listen very carefully to the client and

his reactions to picture what is coming for you and say no very early in the process when it is not worth it.

Lost a lot of time in the past with, trying to convince, explain, comparing, etc. In the end you make your self

look like a fool instead of doing some real business. Time is money.

In the past I was selling a real state of the art home alarm system. Same thing, I spend hours per client

to demonstrate, explain, compare, etc. Partners who sold the same home alarm only spent 10 minutes

per client and at the end of the day they sold a whole lot more than me.

[Joss]

The first thing to do is leave the technology completely out the conversation, even if the client starts asking.

Websites are, in the end, marketing and communications tools and it is vital to get the client thinking about the brand, the message, the need and the customer.

If I was making a TV commercial, I would not expect the client to ask which recording desk I would be using for the soundtrack, but I would expect him to tell me whether commercial will be aired on cinema as well as television.

In above the line advertising, the client wants clear results above anything else and it is worthwhile to encourage the same expectations for their website. 

Since a website may also involve the client or someone from their organisation working on the site, then it is also important to make the point that the site should also be easy to use. There is not need to say "ProcessWire" is easy to use, since that is meaningless if they don't know what a processwire is, how much to feed it or where you can get one kennelled. 

So, again, no technology speak, this is about assurances that YOU can fulfill the brief not that the software can.

Coming from an old world creative production background, one of the most frustrating things I have found is this huge blurred area between the needs of the brand and the technology needed to get there. I suppose it is because many people in creative roles are also in technology roles, whereas in film production, for instance, the two roles are often separate and have been so traditionally for a hundred years.

The client therefore has a clear route: Account Manager -> Creative -> a great big, magical, foggy bit when the technology is handled by people he is not introduced to -> final product to be signed off and paid for.

Much better for all concerned

[Marty Walker]

@organizedfellow I would have done over a dozen EE > PW site moves in the past two years. I have one more to do and that's for a 300+ user artist site.

The problem (for me) with EE has always been the upgrade process as well as the need to have itty bitty little extensions to do this and that. If you rely on just one of those extensions and it's not kept up-to-date with the current EE version you're stuffed. And you only find that out once you go through the excruciating upgrade process. To my knowledge EE still doesn't keep it's system files separate from site files. It's a colossal PITA on a big site.

I've shown clients the ergonomic differences between EE and PW when it comes to the page tree. They immediately get it compared the convoluted channel and entries system. "Oh you can mix pages with different field sets under one tree? Really?" The EE folk will say, "Yes, but there's the Structure add-on for that." Well then why are you shoehorning EE to work like PW?

You may have to mock something up for him on a subdomain as you say. I've done that once or twice at the pitch stage and it was super quick to do.

Good luck.

[pwired]

The first thing to do is leave the technology completely out the conversation, even if the client starts asking.

Couldn't agree more on that because it always gives me the best client flow and the job done in processwire.

[Pete]

As a few have said above, mock ups of the admin can help sell the system more effectively than any technical talk.

Take the case study for National Geographic India: https://processwire.com/talk/topic/7494-case-study-the-triumph-of-national-geographic-traveller-india-in-processwire/

I've done similar in the past - without getting too deep into the technology you can mock up the admin interface for a few of the client's key sections and they should be happy at how simple it is to use. At the end of the day that should be one of their main concerns sorted.

[PhotoWebMax]

Great discussion people...

This is never a "one size fits all" arena. I still think the most important aspects of client relationships is bringing solid communication and enthusiasm to the table. 

Some web guys enjoy studying and deploying multiple systems. The question then becomes "do you need to act like a heavy Swiss Army Knife when a single sharp blade will do?"

The lines between designer and developer can get quite blurry. Having both skills in solid quantities is a blessed thing for sure. I am not one of those guys.  Still, I think it is better to have design, color, typography, CSS, usability and written/verbal skills than it is being a master of several complicated systems.

A studio can offer clients more options due to the advantage of greater staff experience and skill levels. But what about the one man band? There is no harm in saying "I have spent a lot of time investigating all the Droomlapressengine options and have decided that Processwire is the best fit for me. Therefore if we work together it is also the best fit for you..."

[dragan]

I don't even know why you're so worried about switching from CMS a to CMS b. It's not you're rebuilding his old site. You're making a new site for him (or did I miss something?).

Was he specifically asking you to build the first site with EE? In the end, you built a website, with whatever tools you've chosen at the time. 

Simply build his 2nd site now with whatever CMS you decide to use. If he even mentions something like "why a different backend this time?", list your arguments then. Everyone should know by now that our business is very fast-paced. Tools come and go, get better or worse; c'est la vie. He'll even be thankful you were trying to avoid costs for him in the long run (EE support), and as a business guy he'll appreciate that.

I wouldn't mention that you probably would have to update lots of stuff for his old EE site - he could think that you didn't do your duty in the last two years and start to worry now.

I also wouldn't mention that you would have to get up-to-date with EE, since that could be misread as "he doesn't care about keeping up-to-date as a developer".