Some questions about how you work with clients

[Nico Knoll]

Hey,

my normal workflow with clients looks like:

• I get asked if I can build a site
• I make an offer and start building after they accept it
• I upload a beta on my server and we put content in and do changes until it's ready
• I move it to the client's server (if they already have one) or recommend a hoster (sometimes with a little provision)
• After that I write the bill, they pay and the job is done.

My question is: How different is your workflow from mine? I mean I hear a lot of times from people making maintenance contracts and offer to host the sites themselves (even if it's just "White-Label hosting"). I always were afraid that this means more work for less money. But on the other side it sounds like making money without doing stuff, too...

So if you're one of those persons I would be interested in how exactly you do it (one shared host? Every client on a custom server?) and maybe a rough guess on how much you can take for that extra services, too.

Thanks, Nico

[Mike Rockett]

My process differs per client, but follows a simple model, similar to yours.

In terms of hosting, the client pays me for it, and I host it with my HSP. I believe that it's a cleaner way for me to charge a tad extra, which covers maintenance, and ad-hoc server-support (creating email accounts, releasing things caught in SpamBox, etc.). I also ensure that my clients pay me upfront for an entire year of hosting.

[Nico Knoll]

@mike: And do you make an extra bill for "ad-hoc server-support" or is it only included in the hosting contract? And what about changes on the site? Do you make additional bills?

[teppo]

I always were afraid that this means more work for less money. But on the other side it sounds like making money without doing stuff, too...

So if you're one of those persons I would be interested in how exactly you do it (one shared host? Every client on a custom server?) and maybe a rough guess on how much you can take for that extra services, too.

Cloud hosting options make it relatively easy to set up even "per-client" environments, but a shared setup still remains a viable option. In the latter case you'll want to consider how secure it is, though, and what happens if one site is somehow compromised, under DDoS attack, etc. Probably the best advice I can give right now would be researching available options carefully and trying to be prepared for all possible (and seemingly impossible) issues -- consider it just a matter of time before they happen to you

In any case, I wouldn't call it "like making money without doing stuff". Regardless of what kind of deal you make with the client (and perhaps another company that does the hosting for you), the client will consider you, personally, responsible if something goes wrong. This is also why you'll want to define very clearly what your responsibilities are, what kind of SLA you offer, how fast you'll have to react to issues, what kind of services you provide on a 24/7 basis, and so on.

Oh, and trust me: being on call 24/7 gets on your nerves after a while..

[totoff]

Hi Nico,

my workflow looks very much the same with two major differences:

• whenever possible I work according to the principle "content first". That is, I'm trying to have the - written - content ready before I start making the site. Thus I have a better idea of what design is needed and how the site needs to be organised.
• I never ever offer hosting. The legal situation in Germany means so much risks for a hosting service that I decided not offer it. Just inform yourself how many "Datenschutz" rules you have to consider if - for example - you have access to your clients emails (which you definitely have if you host their site). I would say: It's not worth doing it.

Hope that helps

[Marek]

• I never ever offer hosting. The legal situation in Germany means so much risks for a hosting service that I decided not offer it....

if you never offer hosting, doesn't it make things more difficult for those with no IT skills who wants a website? or you tell them how to set up their own hosting? 

[horst]

And besides all what @Totoff has said: regarding the german tax (Steuer, Finanzamt), it very differently handles those things. If you are 'only' working as a designer, you maybe able to write 'only' bills with MwSt 7%, but if you also do other things, like selling webspace etc. this is another business what need to take MwSt 19%. And really, you will end up with double and triple work on this (tax, finanzamt) site if you go into this hell. (And of course you need to work with a good 'steuerberater', and he will bill you the 'double', maybe.)

I never have heared about something functional in regards of "making money without doing stuff".

(at least not for people without some million euros/dollars, - also not for people with some million euros/dollars and with morality)

[totoff]

if you never offer hosting, doesn't it make things more difficult for those with no IT skills who wants a website? or you tell them how to set up their own hosting?

I recommend a hosting company or I just go with what they have (if it is sufficient of course) and then I help them to set it up (better: set it up for them). But - and that's the difference that matters - I'm not the hosting company. I'm just a person offering a service to them, but I'm not responsible for say a secure server or whatever. That's the hosting company's responsibility.

[Joss]

I have two clients and spoken to other companies who have hosting with their previous designers and have had real problems getting out of their relationships with them - the designer not answering the phone, changing passwords and so on. I have one case where the client has registered the .co.uk website some years ago and has just discovered that the designer registered the .com and is refusing to let it go. I am recommending a small, narrowly targeted nuclear missile. 

Consequently I make a point of "I will not tie you into me by buying your domain name for you or insisting you host with me" - that sort of thing. Apart from not wanting the hassle when the server goes down, I would just be a reseller, not a hosting company - it feels like cheating the client. 

I want the client to feel that they can dump me in the future (and vice versa) if the relationship breaks down.

Loyalty is the goal - but loyalty out of mutual respect, not by contract.

[MindFull]

• I get asked if I can build a site
• I make an offer and start building after they accept it
• I upload a beta on my server and we put content in and do changes until it's ready
• I move it to the client's server (if they already have one) or recommend a hoster (sometimes with a little provision)
• After that I write the bill, they pay and the job is done.

For me, it looks more like this:

• I get asked if I can build a site
• I make an offer and they accept it
• After that I write the bill, and they pay
• Now I begin building
• I upload a beta on my server and we put content in and do changes until it's ready
• I move it to the client's server (if they already have one) or recommend a hoster (sometimes with a little provision)
• Now we're done

My approach used to be a lot like yours but I've learned to take this approach throughout the years because too many times I've had clients decide at the last possible moment that our initial agreement was out of their budget or that the site wasn't as important to their business model as they initially anticipated. The company I work for doesn't write a single line of anything unless the client has agreed both on paper and with their payment that the work should commence. No partial payment, no half now and half later. I've followed their lead in my independent work and it's worked out much better for me since I started doing this. I ensure clients get what they are asking for and work with them every step of the way until it's done. 

As far as offering maintenance, I only offer what's needed and what I have the time to do. I offer small packages based on my hourly rate, with a little discount. This way, if they need something like a new template file, pages added, database backup, etc., they don't have to pay me a-la-carte, it's all inclusive up to the agreed number of hours and the hours don't roll over into the next month. Sometimes, with certain sites, I don't offer this at all because of the site would need a more dedicated schedule to maintain it properly. These things are usually discussed at the onset of development, to give them a clear picture of where I'll be after the completion of the project. 

I used to resell web hosting, I stopped after sites would slow dramatically due to resources not being available (being oversold, even on VPS) or server halts. I don't like being in a situation where people are looking at me to do something about their site being down and them losing money when I don't have any control over the hardware. All you can do in that situation is call whoever your provider is and complain - but that doesn't help your client feel any better! I like being responsible for what I can readily address, not for things out of my hands.

[OrganizedFellow]

Mine is pretty close.

• I get asked if I can build a site
• I get all information to make my decision
• I make an offer and start building after they accept it
• I draft a contract, get it signed, collect 50%, and begin building
• I upload a beta on my server and we put content in and do changes until it's ready
• I move it to the client's server (if they already have one) or recommend a hoster (sometimes with a little provision)
• After that I write the bill, they pay and the job is done.

[Mike Rockett]

@mike: And do you make an extra bill for "ad-hoc server-support" or is it only included in the hosting contract? And what about changes on the site? Do you make additional bills?

It's included in the initial invoice, and I include information about all the service-provisions in an SLA. A year later, they're given another invoice for the hosting (and thus maintenance).

With regards to site changes, I don't bill if the change takes me less than 10 minutes. Reason being: I don't have a lot of clients. The second I have plenty, and support becomes a time-issue, I'll be revising it. I may set up a retainer programme, or I may separate the hosting fee into two parts (actual fee for hosting, plus maintenance and site changes at a flat fee per month, payable per month or per year).

I never ever offer hosting. The legal situation in Germany means so much risks for a hosting service that I decided not offer it. Just inform yourself how many "Datenschutz" rules you have to consider if - for example - you have access to your clients emails (which you definitely have if you host their site). I would say: It's not worth doing it.

I find this quite interesting, and it has been debated amoungst my colleagues a few times.

Here in SA, the onus is on the the person who signed up for the hosting to legally state (that is, on paper, signed) that he/she will not interfere with confidential information, such as email, customer databases, etc. Further, I keep a video-log of everything I do on their server when I sign into it. If the client requires me to prove that I haven't interfered, should something go wrong, I show them the videos, and state that I have kept to my word. There is the issue of trust, however. The client doesn't know if I ever logged in between any two sessions, for example. Once again, it's a 'word' thing. Personally, I keep my word - I don't know so much about others (most do, but you get some dingy people on this humble [or not-so-humble] planet).

Also, like Joss does, I don't force the client into getting a hosting package with me. If they choose to host it with someone else, I investigate and inform them whether or not I can provide server support. If I can't, I recommend someone who can. However, I always offer site support. After all, I built the thing, and so I should be the one to do it. That said, I do give the client the opportunity to choose someone else (perhaps someone in their IT department, if any) that will do site-support. If that becomes the case, I sever all ties from that front, leaving them responsible. When it comes to things like this, there's no half-in and half-out. That said, I do make sure, at the onset, that the appointed person knows what he's doing, and then I sever ties on that front.

Cloud hosting options make it relatively easy to set up even "per-client" environments, but a shared setup still remains a viable option.

This is something I'll be venturing into when I have more clients: a cloud package. Some South African ISPs do have cloud servers around the world (like Afrihost, which uses MTN and its network), and they're pretty good, so I've heard.

That said, I'm sticking with shared hosting for now, as I have a solid legal framework/process for them, and it's all mentioned in my SLA, and any other binding contracts.

My process:

• I get asked if I can build a site, or offer a non-client with an old/outdated website if they'd like a new one
• Once we've established that they want one, I request all the information/requirements I need in order to build a quotation
• Information and requirements received (written), and so I build up a quotation
• Once they've accepted it (after revisions, if necessary), I draft up an SLA (based on my blueprints), get it signed, collect 50-60%, and begin the design and development process (including conceptual work).
• Once I've done major pages, such as Home and About Us (for example), with the full design (and templates) at least 90% ready, I upload a development version to a server (be it mine or theirs, whichever they prefer). The preview is also user-name/password-protected.
• We then discuss what's already there, and what content/design tweaks need to made. I then make any changes, add all final content, and update the preview (now in beta).
• Client makes final reviews. Once they're happy with everything, they're informed that they need to pay for the remainder of the quotation, at which time an invoice is issued (stating that they've already paid x amount).
• Once paid, I upload to the staging server (or move to staging folder on the server, whichever is the case).
• Job done!

Of course, the process is subject to change, on a client-per-client basis - but most of the workflow stays in tact.

 

Edit: Oh, and a note about the 50/50 (@MindFull): I've never had a problem with clients changing their mind. If they do, I'll revise.

[Philipp]

We have kind of a similiar procedure. But to be honest, most of the times it is a little bit different.

•  Get in contact with the client
• Talk with them about the project and what goals/problems/... they have
• Make an offer with a fixed price including an hour-based system for extra work
• They sign the contract and we start working
• We develope on our servers
• We move the site to the Clients server/hosting
• They pay us
• Everyone is happy

You've already mentioned the flaw with this kind of a system. The customer pays in the end. Another type we tried this year was a "partnership" agreement with the client. We weren't sure on how many hours we would need, because it was a really large site so we agreed that the client pays us a monthly sum in exchange for about 30 hours of work each month. The time was spent a little bit more flexible but it worked in the end. With this model, we would for example need 4 months for the main site, another month for a special directory on the site and two more months for feature . The client could paid every tree months and both sites could end the contract within 4 weeks.

I never have heared about something functional in regards of "making money without doing stuff".
(at least not for people without some million euros/dollars, - also not for people with some million euros/dollars and with morality)

 
There is nothing for free, of course. In the best case, your income does not depend on the time you spent. (or be a multiple of it) For example, if you build a store for your customer and you get a 2% cut for every sale they make. While you have some work to setup the store and maybe little maintance cost, you can still get money for a long time out of it. But this also includes more risk and lots of other factors to consider.
 

if you never offer hosting, doesn't it make things more difficult for those with no IT skills who wants a website? or you tell them how to set up their own hosting?

We usually recommend another host for them. There is no money in hosting the site ourselves because we are far away from making money by scaling the hosting service. Sometimes, if the site is quite small we host it on our swiss reseller hosting.

[benbyf]

• Get enquiry, chat to them about options (and whether they actually need a custom website and not squarespace or the like (I hate making boring websites))

Make quote

if accepted: issue invoice and get 20% up front

Work on design and build

Host myself on a shared server or on clients server.

Pay remainder

See if they want a service agreement for future tweaks or upgrades

[lisandi]

For me, it looks more like this:

• I get asked if I can build a site
• I make an offer and they accept it
• After that I write the bill, and they pay
• Now I begin building
• I upload a beta on my server and we put content in and do changes until it's ready
• I move it to the client's server (if they already have one) or recommend a hoster (sometimes with a little provision)
• Now we're done

My approach used to be a lot like yours but I've learned to take this approach throughout the years because too many times I've had clients decide at the last possible moment that our initial agreement was out of their budget or that the site wasn't as important to their business model as they initially anticipated. The company I work for doesn't write a single line of anything unless the client has agreed both on paper and with their payment that the work should commence. No partial payment, no half now and half later. I've followed their lead in my independent work and it's worked out much better for me since I started doing this. I ensure clients get what they are asking for and work with them every step of the way until it's done. 

As far as offering maintenance, I only offer what's needed and what I have the time to do. I offer small packages based on my hourly rate, with a little discount. This way, if they need something like a new template file, pages added, database backup, etc., they don't have to pay me a-la-carte, it's all inclusive up to the agreed number of hours and the hours don't roll over into the next month. Sometimes, with certain sites, I don't offer this at all because of the site would need a more dedicated schedule to maintain it properly. These things are usually discussed at the onset of development, to give them a clear picture of where I'll be after the completion of the project. 

I used to resell web hosting, I stopped after sites would slow dramatically due to resources not being available (being oversold, even on VPS) or server halts. I don't like being in a situation where people are looking at me to do something about their site being down and them losing money when I don't have any control over the hardware. All you can do in that situation is call whoever your provider is and complain - but that doesn't help your client feel any better! I like being responsible for what I can readily address, not for things out of my hands.

Hi Nico

We started years ago like you and than we moved to Thailand and things changed as the main problem was the payment of the customers and another huge issue is often the content for a website which does simply only exist in the mind of some customers but not in written.

Therefore we had to change our workflow.

We do nearly no advertising as we get mostly contacted directly by customers or referred from recent and former customers.

The two bold marked lines in the above quote is very important if working with especially German customers and customers from Austria. Otherwise you have to invest a lot of time in running after your money which you probably will never see! That is simply a reality and it is not at all good. If this happend to you already than you are not alone. How to deal with none paying customers wold be the Topic of another off topic post!

You have to consider different things before you start your work especially on web project:

1. How long will you discuss the project with the custome. We had customers who liked to discuss more than actually deliver a clear "Lastenheft" what it is called in Germany. It is a legal MUST for some kind of work and the customer has to provide this to you and it is actually not your unpaid job to do this job for the customer.

2. Germany is a difficult LEGAL case to as even here in the forum you are not allowed to give "Rechtsberatung". So you do really good to contact a lawyer who is knowledgable in Freelance and Internet law first and setup some AGB with him. Here you can clearly clarify how you handle a project and what are the responsibilities of a customer and those of you and also you can define on who has to provide what at what time frame and in waht form etc. Lots of things should be considered here - especially in Germany to make it later much easier and cheaper for you to go to one of the "Amtsgerichts" and get help for the payments from there.

3. We never ever had problems with payments from US customers. They actually pay us always (since 2002) in advance or in advance after clearly defined milestones.

I really don't know why there is sucha big difference depending on where the customer lives or also where he is coming from. You should consider this to before you make your quote.

4. Another issue you are having is with taxes (which are again quite difficult if you are living and working from Germany!) In other words you should also contact a good "Steuerberater" before you start working and writing bills for customers. You also must take in account with whom you are working or collaborating and how you charge those external works or if you employ people to do this.

5. Where will you develop the project. On your server or on theirs, even it is an existing live site project i.e. which needs modifications.

6. Communication with the customer is very important and often customers tend to give you more and more tasks after they agreed that you do the website for them. Make them very clear - in an early state - or even better write it in your "AGB" that you have to make additional agreements before you start on those tasks.

this is only in short and there is still more to consider.

7. If you provide Hosting consider the Legal laws and requirements of the country you live in, the one you work from and the one you are hosting! Their legal requirements often differ a lot. Security, Privacy, Copyrights Infringements, Forum, Comments Responsibilities, ... etc are things you will have to deal with beside running a Server Environment and the websites in it.

--

Our workflow is like followed:

1. The customer contacts us (usually - mostly referrals) - sometimes we contact the customer (mostly customers which host with us already)

2. We usually a skype chat (also because of the distance to most of our customers) - about 1 hour. We have a prpared list of questions for that!

3. We ask the customer to send us his detailed "Lastenheft" and give us access to things which help us to make a good quote i.e. a former side if existing, images they want to use, content they have already written and want us to insert them etc.

4. We write a quote and send it to the customer including our AGBs and Payment Terms and Schedules. Beside fixed Prices we usually charge by man/hour which depend on how much a customer pays in advance to us. From that amount we deduct the worked man/hours. We make no difference on what kind of work it is as one man/hour is 60 minutes no matter if itis design, editing, writing, programming etc. but This points varies from company to company.

5. The customer can agree or not agree in a given timeframe (this should be clarified in your quote)

6. In case we don't hear anything from that customer in a week we usually contact the costomer by phone to talk to him personally. ( we had very good experience with that as you can actually "hear" if the customer is happy with your quote or not and you can much easier adjust i.e. usually they have also asked others to send a quote.

7. Try to get a written consent. This is not always as easy as it sounds. We usually ask the customer to send us back a singned quote form - you can put a line on it which says that the customer agrees with it and the AGB etc. - We also provide NDAs and sometimes the customer does it so this has to agreed to and signed at that point often even before making the quote or getting additional materials about a project.

8. We wait until the customer makes his first payment - well sometimes we are silly and start working also in advance but often than it results in stuff which gets not so easy paid, so better simply be patient and wait.

9. We start working on the project until the prepaid hours or on fixed prioce projects until a certain milestone. We think it is important that even it is a fixed price project that you have a good timetracking tool. It helps also you to see where what time for what purpose gets spend and if that task is billable or not.

10. If the project is longer than a week we contact the customer every week and he gets a report of work done and the hours already used. - It is easy to do if you are using a timetracking tool. This gives the customer transparency in what you are actually doing and where is money is gone.

11. At Milestones or also when the final of the Projekt has been reached we have a short skype with screensharing with the customer.

12. Often customers actually help us to get their content in. Before they do this they get a training. As long as the project is not finished they will have no admin rights (only editor rights) and the site is usually on one of our server or cloudspaces we create for the project.

13. If there is no more funding available we stop work even it is sometimes hard as you really like what you are doing, but be aware that you probably don't get paid if you did not agree in it. This can happen with fixed price projects but also with man/hour projects, while we experienced that the man/hour model is way more flexible to handle those things.

14. We make another agreement and continue wrk like before i.e. to the next milestone.

15. The Project is ready and optimised on our servers and ready to be moved to the customer server (if he still wishes this - often customers like to stay as we offer free hosting from project start for one year incl update support for security issues which they often don't have on their former hosting spaces. But this is really up to you and keep in mind that hosting websites means a lot of work, even it looks so easy to do!

Remark: we also don't host any website so we check before if it would suite our servers. Sometimes it is simply better that they host on a cloudspace which can grow with their site - we tend to move actually all our customers in future to do this kind of hosting to reduce our workload and to limit the growing legal problems wile providing hosting to customers.

16. The customer can check the full functionality in and out as long as the website is still on our server.

17. The Last payment minus the one for moving the site to the customer server  which gets listed always as a seperate post gets paid. If the customer is not moving a site this also does not need to be paid, which means we don't calculate the movement as a project cost itself. It is an additional service we provide! Some hosting companies (bigger ones) also provide a moving service to their servers which is often free. If customers are using them it is also fine as they will be responsible that the site will work on their servers lateron too.

18. Support and Maintenance. We agree with customers that we give or not give support.

19. In case we give support there is another agreement which clarifies what gets supported. In case of no support we are done and out of the project and the customer and his site ar on their own. To ensure that none of our customers which host with us gets harmed by an attact to websites which are not supported we include the basic security update support for core and modules which we installed into our hosting plans and charge only for support on external servers - the prices depend again on time and also on the form of access ftp/ssh (which is a huge time difference when doing work)

20. We archive the project and send the customer (or give access to the download) to the customer.

Finished

[dazzyweb]

Does anyone here charge for consultation?

I find that quite often the client doesn't know exactly what they want and they need a lot more information, advice and education which is quite valuable. Also it can be quite difficult to quote a price without first discovering and planning together what the client actually needs. It is quite possible after a bit of consultation and discovery that the client doesn't actually  need a website or something totally different to what you are providing. Or after advising the client in the direction and plan that he needs to go towards his online goals and setting out what needs to be done for his website that the client then doesn't take you up on the offer and goes else where.

This can then lead to consulting for free with no customer at the end.

My question is does anyone bill for consultation before quoting or working on a project?

I am thinking to bill for this time and then minus the amount from the total project bill if they take up the project with me,

I often think that the knowledge and guidance that I provide is often more or just as valuable as the building or development of the website.

[Joss]

Hi Dazzyweb

I think that often depends on what the competition does.

With music, I would love to charge for demos and then do some discounting on the final version. The trouble is that none of my competitors do that and so I would quickly lose business. It is right pain actually - I spend a huge amount of hours each year doing demos that come to nothing.

[totoff]

Does anyone here charge for consultation?

This matter is very difficult to handle. I always offer much to much consultation for free and often find that the market simply requires me to do so (as Joss is mentioning). However, I try to do the following:

• I offer half an hour of getting to know each other and discussing the project for free. That should be enough to make a quote. Preferably this meeting is in my office space to save me time.
• If during the meeting I have the impression that consulting is required I discuss my impression with the client and let consulting become a part of the quote

From my experience it is very important that consulting gets recognized as a separate part of the project with its own budget in order to be accepted. This must happen in the forefront. If you miss this step, you'll find yourself very soon in a situation of consulting for free. Billing it afterwards is nearly impossible.

And, in addition, it depends on your company's image: If you are recognized as consulting firm (even if you are alone) it's much easier.

[lisandi]

Hi Dazzyweb

Have you ever applied to a job on Odesk or any other Freelance Plattform. If yes you probably realized that they actually try to keep your intros as short as possible which leads to a vacuum in terms of what to client and developer actually know from each other. It is not very useful IMHO.

In Germay the law clearly states what is required to provide by whom - the client or the customer. There are two basic form of contract work.

The so called "Werk Vertrag" and the so called "Dienst Vertrag" (there are also some other forms like "Werk Lieferungs Vertrag".
Depending on what form you want to agree in with your customer the customer himself has to supply all the basic knowledge about his project called "Lastenheft" or you as a Developer have to do it step by step. In Germany itis very important actually to agree in one of those contractal forms to avoid legal problems afterwards.

I could not find an English translation - please use Google translate.
 

Mit dem Abschluss eines Dienstvertrages wird derjenige, welcher Dienste zusagt (Freiberufler, Arbeitnehmer), zur Leistung der versprochenen Tätigkeiten (Dienste), der andere Teil (Kunde, Patient, Arbeitgeber) zur Gewährung der vereinbarten Vergütung verpflichtet. Gegenstand des Dienstvertrages können Dienste jeder Art sein.

Dienstverträge können mit Angehörigen freier Berufe (Ärzte, Zahnärzte, Rechtsanwälte, Steuerberater usw.) abgeschlossen werden. Ein Patient, der einen Zahnarzt aufsucht, schließt mit diesem einen Dienstvertrag ab.

Dienstverträge, die mit abhängig Beschäftigten (Arbeitnehmer) abgeschlossen werden, bezeichnet man als Arbeitsvertrag. Dabei sind vor allem die Bestimmungen des Arbeitsrechtes zu beachten. Die Inhalte der Arbeitsverträge werden nur noch selten zwischen dem einzelnen Arbeitnehmer und Arbeitgeber ausgehandelt. Sie werden von den Tarifparteien in den Tarifverträgen festgelegt.

In some countries this differs but for example in Austria it is pretty much the same.

The other question is actually when did you agree to make a contract and what is needed as legal form to make a contract.
In some countries you need to agree in written even with a signature and 2 witnesses. In others a contract can be started by doing and behaving like you agreed like in a contract. "Konkludentes Schliessen" - http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schl%C3%BCssiges_Handeln in English it seems to be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implied-in-fact_contract - like in the US.

In both cases it actually must clearly be defined which law will actually applied to before you agree!

In Internet Business this is often not easy as you probably have aclients work abroad and are perhaps even collaborating with developers wordwide or those who work from remote locations like Maldives, Bali, India, Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand etc.

It can even be of importance where your actuall work takes place, which means on a server in US, Germany, Singapore etc. This can make a difference too. so better agree before what legal law should be applied to a certain project -
For those from Germany and Austria it is called "Erfuellungsort" http://dejure.org/gesetze/ZPO/29.html, http://dejure.org/gesetze/ZPO/12.html.
Perhaps someone knows the right terms in English. It would be nice to know how this gets handled in the US and UK as often customers are hosting in those countries.

Especially in international Projects or while working with Outsourcing Companies you need to have all kind of Skype Talks, Screensharing, Kakao. Line etc. communications. The best you actually could do is to agree right at the beginning that you ask the client to send you by mail his "Lastenheft" which means his detailed paper where he introduces the project and all his parts in a very detailed form. As most customers even don't know how to write a Lastenheft you could help in quite easily by providing him an predefined form of tasks. Use Google Docs i.e. or any other questioneer form - even Form maker is very good for this, to provide your customers some red carpet to their project.

It might be even helpful to design one together here in another Thread.

i.e. if your customer wants to have a website it could start with:

Introduction Text

What kind of a website do you want?

Static pages - HTML

Dynmic Pages - CMS

You could explain whatis the difference.

What do you want to do with the website?
Get new customers

Inform about my business

Present my contact Informations

Sell my products

etc

and there are tons of more questions you could prepare in a Form whichwould help the customer to think a little bit more in advance by himself about his project.

Don't forgetto ask them about their Hosting Spaces Specs and enabled Tools as it is hard to deploy Processwire on a Server with PHP 5.2 and only FTP access where you can't even change the Nameserver entries to i.e. use Cloudflare or other Supercharging Services.

Such a form could constantly be adjusted so that it would fit more and more the customers needs and your interest to know as much as possible about the project.

In our experience it helps a lot if the agreement is based on very clear defined tasks, milestones and payment schedules before development starts.
We often charge customers already for consultations and until now we had no bad experience with it beside the problem with some customers as mentioned already. It really depends from where they are IMHO.

And Joss is absolutly right. Before we were able to produce our first CD we had to provide tons of Demos and again to get the music streamed over the medias. If you don't have something like "Sony" etc behind you it is a job for free and probably with no reward. Music busines is even harder than web business! If you are inetersted in Music Business than I really recommend John Kelloggs Course (Berklee College of Music)- it is so great!
https://www.edx.org/course/berkleex/berkleex-mb110x-introduction-music-4981#.VGC0v9Z1NSY

Unfortunately I don't know if something similar is also existing for Web Business or Freelance Business and as I would like to know about it much more.

In General @Totoff brought it to the point: Talk short - introduce your self and let the customer present his stiff best in written form. Than agree that from this point everything even consultation, answering emails, skype chats and talkks etc p.p. will count like theywould visit a lawyer which usually also has a small free introdcution time of max 30 Minutes and than not seldom it is getting real expensive!
 

This must happen in the forefront. If you miss this step, you'll find yourself very soon in a situation of consulting for free. Billing it afterwards is nearly impossible.

By the way try to calculate your pricing so that your project time already gets paid off with the iitial payment! and the rest is profit! At least the initial payment should pay all your bills during that time otherwise you will face a liquirity problem and running your company boat constantly scratching sand banks - which will mean that you won't be able to manoever anymore!

[teppo]

From my experience it is very important that consulting gets recognized as a separate part of the project with its own budget in order to be accepted. This must happen in the forefront. If you miss this step, you'll find yourself very soon in a situation of consulting for free. Billing it afterwards is nearly impossible.

Totoff pretty much nailed it already. Only thing I'd like to add is that, if you can tell right away that the client has unclear image of what they want/need, you can always offer your consulting services as an entirely separate project, with the end result being a specification/plans for their upcoming site/project/product.

Price it reasonably (but avoid being too cheap so that the client won't be surprised when they see your final quote) and explain that this has to be done sooner or later anyway. You might also mention that, if they so choose, they can always contract someone else to build the final product. Consider it kind of a probation period for both you and the client

Common sense is always good thing to have; how much do you want/need this particular client, what's the probability of your "free hours" going to waste, do you have other (better) things to do at the moment, etc. Personally I find half an hour very short time to really get to know the client and the project properly, but I guess that too depends on the kind of (and scale of) projects/clients you usually work on/with

[totoff]

I find half an hour very short time to really get to know the client and the project properly

Actually, it is too short. The get-to-know-talk is kept snappy in order to let the main briefing talk become a part of the paid contract instead of offering it for free. The reason is, that from my experience there is not much difference between a briefing (in order to learn what you have to do) and consulting. So I try to make it part of the contract.

[totoff]

As lisandi was mentioning the law, I recently found this blog post and the according contract example helpful:

http://stuffandnonsense.co.uk/projects/contract-killer/

[teppo]

Actually, it is too short. The get-to-know-talk is kept snappy in order to let the main briefing talk become a part of the paid contract instead of offering it for free.

Sounds reasonable, but does this mean that you define the actual costs later? Or are you billing by hour or stuff like that? Mostly just curious, since I've been pretty strict about spending/getting enough time for cost estimation before client gets any prices at all..

[totoff]

Sounds reasonable, but does this mean that you defining the costs later?

I talk with them and then in my quote I offer a fixed price for a "consulting part" as a basis for my concept. The price itself is based on my hourly rate indeed. If the case is more complicated and they need marketing consulting in general (not only for a website) I offer mostly between one and three days pure consulting to put them on track. This can comprise workshops or some other kind of more elaborated consulting.

[teppo]

@totoff: I guess that's pretty close to what I described earlier, i.e. something like a separate project to get the concept straight, though it sounds like you're also including project costs in some form here.

Sorry if I sound a bit too inquisitive here, but.. what I'd really like to hear is that do you estimate the final price at this stage already, or are you simply stating what your hourly rate is and that the final amount will depend on the concept stage? Or do you perhaps provide another quote with more specific details (about prices and the features of the end product) when the concept is finished?