Project Management for Developers: How you do it?

[Vineet Sawant]

Hello folks,

I think this would be a right place to discuss this topic that's very important but often neglected by developers like me.

After spending some good time on PW's forum, I've seen some very talented developers here and I've always wondered, how these guys manage their projects and get paid on time.

For example, Ryan has built this PW world alone, we're just few people who moved in this world and started loving it. When I try to think I wonder, how would have Ryan managed this project of developing ProcessWire?

For me, I think I'm a terrible project manager, so I'd love to learn from your experience.

P.S: I must make it very clear that I'm not trying to know how much any of developers here are earning every month. I just wish to know how you manage your projects & your clients. That's all.

Like pwired said, it's a way of learning, I hope you all can understand as I'm just a fresher in the field.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Vineet Sawant

[Macrura]

@Vineet -

Here's what I use:

• Online Project Management (for team projects): feng office http://www.fengoffice.com/web/community/downloads.php
  The latest version is quite good. Has tasks, time tracking, conversations, documents, calendar, reminders etc..
• Time Tracking/Invoicing: Billings http://www.marketcircle.com/billings/
• Non Time Based Invoicing: Totals http://www.kedisoft.com/totals/
  The document customization and client management are a bit more advanced than Billings

I also sometimes use Letter Me Later, good for when you need to send an invoice or message at some point in the future

http://www.lettermelater.com/

[pwired]

Very good topic Vineet Sawant !! Not only discuss with each other coding pw websites
but also about marketing websites.

My experience is that many website builders consider this a private part of their work
and so discussions and answers about this topic stay for the most part private.

Of course I can understand that, it would be like asking someone how much money he or she is earning every month, for how many hours and what kind of work and many people would like to keep that private.

But it would help a lot of newbies if they could learn something from the pro's about making, negotiating, planning, selling and getting payed for websites.

I for example made only 8 or 9 websites that I actually sold. None of them was done with pw that came later on.
I charged between 300 and 800 euros because they were simple websites with still a lot of work and I got payed when the website was finished and delivered.
Sometimes I got not payed as promised or not payed at all and had to shut down the website. Then on the first page of the website I put in big letters : "This website is for sale - contact me at - - - - - "

The next day they called me where to meet and pay me !

Because I am not a pro website developer and know little php (but I am good with html/css/api and photoshop)
my rate is 15 euro/hour for html-css-photoshop work and 20 euro/hour for simple php work.

I have studied coding rates per hour with google from many internet entrepreneurs and I know my rates are cheap but hey I am not a pro. I am learning everyday and my dream is to become a pro website developer and coder with pw and make a living with websites. That would be a dream come true for me and say goodbye to my work at a rent a car company.

And I am sure I am not the only one on this forum with this dream.
So people - please reply on this topic.

My own experience with selling websites so far:

1. Only give FTP - Admin - Database - CPanel passwords to the client when he has fully payed you !!
2. Don't let your self get payed the total sum at the end but get payed each time you finished a part
of the website, lets say in 3 or 4 parts.
3. Make it absolute clear from the very beginning that changes and edits on the website afterwards
are going to be charged and for how much. Just too many clients take it for granted that doing changes
and edits on their website afterwards are included with the end price they payed you.
4. Offer them from the very beginning a payed course if the client wants to edit the website for him self.

By the way - this is also and exactly the reason why it is so important that a cms has an easy front-end for the client so he can edit his website in an easy way.

5. Informing your client about points 3 and 4 at the end makes them angry. Tell them at the very beginning.

What I and many others, would like to read from you people is how to find new projects or new clients ?

At what point do you hand over the ftp - admin - database and cpanel passwords ?

How do you let your self getting payed for your work ?
- at the beginning
- in parts
- at the end

And where do you consider risks in the payment ?

How many people here do actually make a living with websites and how many do it as a second income ?

Ok thanks in advance for your replies.
 

[totoff]

i would die and get nothing done without my awesome timetracking software mite by berlin based company yolk: http://mite.yo.lk/en/

i can't recommend enough these guys who made one of the best tools on the internet and are extremely responsive to their users. mite is worth every penny you spend on it.

if it comes to getting-things-done tools i'm finally back to outlook after producteev, wunderlist and remember the milk which all didn't fill the bill for me. outlook does it neither but at the end it integrates best with email.

last but not least i use for billing and accounting monkey office which is very specific to germany and austria unfortunately. i'm afraid it won't help you in the uk or us or india. but for germany/austria it's very good.

that's pretty much my setup. the key to it all is to-do-lists and mite.

[Vineet Sawant]

@Macrura

Thanks a lot, those look very useful. Mainly my focus is on correctly estimating the time & efforts required to do a task, which I almost always fail to do, it results in non-profitable projects. Time tracking seems very helpful.

@pwired

Very good topic Vineet Sawant !! Not only discuss with each other coding pw websites<
but also about marketing websites.

My experience is that many website builders consider this a private part of their work
and so discussions and answers about this topic stay for the most part private.

Of course I can understand that, it would be like asking someone how much money he
or she is earning every month and many people would like to keep that private.

But it would help a lot of newbies if they could learn something from the pro's about making, negotiating, planning, selling and getting payed for websites.

I for example made only 8 or 9 websites that I actually sold. None of them was done with pw that came later on.
I charged between 300 and 800 euros because they were simple websites with still a lot of work and I got payed when the website was finished and delivered.
Sometimes I got not payed as promised or not payed at all and had to shut down the website. Then on the first page of the website I put in big letters :"This website is for sale - contact me at - - - - -"
The next day they called me where to meet and pay me !
Because I am not a pro website developer and know little php (but I am good with html/css/api and photoshop)
my rate is 15 euro/hour for html-css-photoshop work and 20 euro/hour for simple php work.
I have studied coding rates per hour with google from many internet entrepreneurs and I know my rates are cheap but hey I am not a pro. I am learning everyday and my dream is to become a pro website developer and coder with pw and make a living with websites. That would be a dream come true for me and say goodbye to my work at a rent a car company.
And I am sure I am not the only one on this forum with this dream.
So people - please reply on this topic.

My own experience with selling websites so far:
1. Only give FTP - Admin - Database - CPanel passwords to the client when he has fully payed you !!
2. Don't let your self get payed the total sum at the end but get payed each time you finished a part of the website, lets say in 3 or 4 parts.
3. Make it absolute clear from the very beginning that changes and edits on the website afterwards are going to be charged and for how much. Just too many clients take it for granted that doing changes and edits on their website afterwards are included with the end price they payed you.
4. Offer them from the very beginning a payed course if the client wants to edit the website for him self.
5. Informing your client about points 3 and 4 at the end makes them angry. Tell them at the very beginning.

What I and many others, would like to read from you people is how to find new projects or new clients ?

At what point do you hand over the ftp - admin - database and cpanel passwords ?

How do you let your self getting payed for your work ?
- at the beginning
- in parts
- at the end
How many people here do actually make a living with websites and how many do it as a second income ?
Ok thanks in advance for your replies.

Some part of your answer wasn't visible untill I quoted it.

Nevermind, I really like your answer for the honest experience you've shared with us. I agree to most of your points and your suggestions are what every beginner in this field must need to know.

Get paid in advance, this lesson I learnt the hard way. I've delivered websites and haven't got paid at all.

Even I've put a big bold bright text on the client's website saying the site is down due to due payments, but still haven't got paid.

Many of my clients, like the one I'm dealing with now, haven't paid a dime & have been demanding to deliver site first and get paid later as it's their "Company Rule" to pay only after the work is done.

Since I work in a highly competitive and extremely cheap market, and being a fresher in the field, for the fear of not missing out a good client, I've been working for them. 

All this affects productivity when delayed payments make it hard for you to do what you love, designing sites or developing new things. It's a big problem I'm facing now when paying bills on time is a challenge due to indefinitely delayed payments.

p.s: When I say extremely cheap, I mean people make Wordpress website for under $90/website. Of course they use the same theme for each site with colors changed a bit and also there's no way client can do modifications, SEO/UX/Code Quality do not exist but who cares? People here judge things on price basis not the quality.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Vineet Sawant

[pwired]

I re-edited my post a couple of times afterwards.

[totoff]

But it would help a lot of newbies if they could learn something from the pro's about making, negotiating, planning, selling and getting payed for websites.

my rate is 15 euro/hour for html-css-photoshop work and 20 euro/hour for simple php work.

one important key to professionalism is to take professional rates. 15/20 euros is not enough to make a living from. this is, why you attract clients who doesn't take you for serious. they simply doesn't consider you as an professional.

however, if you feel you are not market ready do a regular job and in you off-time work on a really good project you love to work on. do this for a person/client you like and who doesn't set you under pressure. use it for learning and improvement. once ready, you have something to showcase. than go to the market and tell prospects: this is what i can and i'll do it for you for a professional rate.

[Vineet Sawant]

one important key to professionalism is to take professional rates. this is, why you attract clients who doesn't take you for serious. they simply doesn't consider you as an professional.

This is a very true statement and has suddenly made me realize that's one of the reasons I'm facing the problems I've right now.

But then comes a question, where do I get the clients from who will pay me good for my quality of work?

[pwired]

one important key to professionalism is to take professional rates. 15/20 euros is not enough to make a living from. this is, why you attract clients who doesn't take you for serious. they simply doesn't consider you as an professional.

Yes, I know you are right about that totoff, many other people have told me the same and I am struggling with this. It's my daily fight to become more professional and faster with coding and get my self into the market. Coming friday a german internet company is going to test me if they can use me. By god i hope so because this will be a major step up in making money with the internet. But I am also so afraid because If they hire me but later on decide I am not good enough I can never return anymore to my work that I have now at a rent a car company.

[Vineet Sawant]

 Coming friday a german internet company is going to test me if they can use me. By god i hope so because this will be a major step up in making money with the internet.

Well I hope you get that job, wish you good luck.

[pwired]

But then comes a question, where do I get the clients from who will pay me good for my quality of work?

I think this can be done not only over the internet but also locally where you live. Everywhere, also where you live locally, there are still a lot of companies, offices, businesses, police stations, hospitals, doctors, dentists, garages, plumbers, transporters, etc, etc. etc.

who are without their website. Make a list of every company, office, business, etc that you can find in your neighborhood. Contact them by phone, email, jump in your car and pay them a visit and ask for the manager. Offer them your service to present their business on the internet. Even if they say they already have a website offer them to upgrade their website in 2 or more languages.

[totoff]

But then comes a question, where do I get the clients from who will pay me good for my quality of work?

i don't know very much about india (you are based there, right?) and the market there. but what i see from your portfolio website you are a professional. so my advise would be to take at a minimum the average rate that good professionals get in india and to stand it if clients refuse to pay this rate. of course, this requires a second income as long as your client base isn't strong enough. if you have no other choice than accept lower rates for low-level jobs but never advertise that you've worked on this projects and never tell everybody. they simply doesn't exist.

if everything you do in public is focused on professional rates you WILL get better clients.

[totoff]

I can never return anymore to my work that I have now at a rent a car company.

can't you offer to work from spain over the internet and keep your day time job at the car rent? at least for a testing period.

[Vineet Sawant]

i don't know very much about india (you are based there, right?) 

Yes, that's right.

if you have no other choice than accept lower rates for low-level jobs but never advertise that you've worked on this projects and never tell everybody. they simply doesn't exist.

That's a golden advice.

[Vineet Sawant]

I think this can be done not only over the internet but also locally where you live. Everywhere, also where you live locally, there are still a lot of companies, offices, businesses, police stations, hospitals, doctors, dentists, garages, plumbers, transporters, etc, etc. etc.

who are without their website. Make a list of every company, office, business, etc that you can find in your neighborhood. Contact them by phone, email, jump in your car and pay them a visit and ask for the manager. Offer them your service to present their business on the internet. Even if they say they already have a website offer them to upgrade their website in 2 or more languages.

I'm trying this, but we've experience of getting clients who expect cheap price, even when they can really afford, they really won't pay, that's how it works here.

[pwired]

can't you offer to work from spain over the internet and keep your day time job at the car rent? at least for a testing period.

Thanks for the tip totoff, I will discuss that with them on Friday. Yes I do live in Spain but this german internet company is also in Spain only a few kilometers away from where I live. It's an internet company started by 2 very smart germans. As you know, Spain is one of the countries that has been hit hard by the economic crisis, more hard than most other european countries. So if you have a job in Spain then you should be glad. By the way I am not spanish my self. I was born in the Netherlands but moved to Spain when I was around 40. I should have stayed in the Netherlands but hey that is talking afterwards.

[totoff]

even when they can really afford, they really won't pay

there are only two reasons i can think off for this imho:

1. these people don't need what you have to offer. they find it nice-to-have but not necessary. focus on clients who have a benefit for their business from your work and make clear what this benefit is. don't try to sell refrigerators at the north pole. even millionaires don't pay for something they don't benefit from.
2. they have somebody who delivers the same quality for a cheaper rate. make clear what sets you apart or get better in what you do - that's hard but i'm afraid that's the way it is.

[pwired]

I'm trying this, but we've experience of getting clients who expect cheap price, even when they can really afford, they really won't pay, that's how it works here.

Ok, I know what you mean, I am facing the same problem here. But a friend of mine has found a way to find better clients who pay better money. He has learned php together with data processing and communication. Now he is working with rent a car companies and hotels. Rent a car companies want to automate with a server over the internet what customer has rented what car for how many days and when the car is expected to come back at what office. Also they want car hire reservations to be done over the internet. Same with Hotels, they want to know over the internet with their website who is staying in the hotel, for how long and when they check out. Also hotel bookings need to be done over the internet. If you can code this automatization in their website they pay you big money for this. I can not do something like this but I see this friend of mine making big money with this. You can also find your self customers over the internet for car hire companies and hotels and they pay you commission.

[pwired]

You can also look for clients who can save themselves a lot of time explaining their customers by email and phone what their work and service is. A website with examples, pictures and explaining text can save them hours on the phone and email with their potential customers who have a lot of questions. Explain that to the business and they will pay you for the time you save them on the phone and the phone bills.

[Vineet Sawant]

1. these people don't need what you have to offer. they find it nice-to-have but not necessary. focus on clients who have a benefit for their business from your work and make clear what this benefit is. don't try to sell refrigerators at the north pole. even millionaires don't pay for something they don't benefit from.
2. they have somebody who delivers the same quality for a cheaper rate. make clear what sets you apart or get better in what you do - that's hard but i'm afraid that's the way it is.

You sound so much like a well experienced sales guy (that's a complement).

You are right in most part, completely agree about not selling something that's not important.

When I started designing websites about 3years ago, the situation was even worse, we needed to make people aware of benefits of having a website.

Things are changing but since India is not a very developed country, there's ignorance & unawareness towards this way of promoting their business.

And yes, here one can always find cheaper alternative for almost everything that exists.

[pwired]

Aren't we getting off topic ?

==================================================================

My experience is that many website builders consider this a private part of their work

and so discussions and answers about this topic stay for the most part private.


Of course I can understand that, it would be like asking someone how
much money he or she is earning every month, for how many hours and what
kind of work and many people would like to keep that private.


But it would help a lot of newbies if they could learn something from
the pro's about making, negotiating, planning, selling and getting payed
for websites.


I for example made only 8 or 9 websites that I actually sold. None of them was done with pw that came later on.

I charged between 300 and 800 euros because they were simple websites
with still a lot of work and I got payed when the website was finished
and delivered.

Sometimes I got not payed as promised or not payed at all and had to
shut down the website. Then on the first page of the website I put in
big letters : "This website is for sale - contact me at - - - - - "

The next day they called me where to meet and pay me !


Because I am not a pro website developer and know little php (but I am good with html/css/api and photoshop)

my rate is 15 euro/hour for html-css-photoshop work and 20 euro/hour for simple php work.


I have studied coding rates per hour with google from many internet
entrepreneurs and I know my rates are cheap but hey I am not a pro. I am
learning everyday and my dream is to become a pro website developer and
coder with pw and make a living with websites. That would be a dream
come true for me and say goodbye to my work at a rent a car company.


And I am sure I am not the only one on this forum with this dream.

So people - please reply on this topic.


My own experience with selling websites so far:


1. Only give FTP - Admin - Database - CPanel passwords to the client when he has fully payed you !!

2. Don't let your self get payed the total sum at the end but get payed each time you finished a part

of the website, lets say in 3 or 4 parts.

3. Make it absolute clear from the very beginning that changes and edits on the website afterwards

are going to be charged and for how much. Just too many clients take it for granted that doing changes

and edits on their website afterwards are included with the end price they payed you.

4. Offer them from the very beginning a payed course if the client wants to edit the website for him self.

By the way - this is also and exactly the reason why it is so
important that a cms has an easy front-end for the client so he can edit
his website in an easy way.

5. Informing your client about points 3 and 4 at the end makes them angry. Tell them at the very beginning.


What I and many others, would like to read from you people is how to find new projects or new clients ?


At what point do you hand over the ftp - admin - database and cpanel passwords ?


How do you let your self getting payed for your work ?

- at the beginning

- in parts

- at the end

And where do you consider risks in the payment ?


How many people here do actually make a living with websites and how many do it as a second income ?


Ok thanks in advance for your replies.

[Vineet Sawant]

Ok, I know what you mean, I am facing the same problem here. But a friend of mine has found a way to find better clients who pay better money. He has learned php together with data processing and communication. Now he is working with rent a car companies and hotels. Rent a car companies want to automate with a server over the internet what customer has rented what car for how many days and when the car is expected to come back at what office. Also they want car hire reservations to be done over the internet. Same with Hotels, they want to know over the internet with their website who is staying in the hotel, for how long and when they check out. Also hotel bookings need to be done over the internet. If you can code this automatization in their website they pay you big money for this. I can not do something like this but I see this friend of mine making big money with this. You can also find your self customers over the internet for car hire companies and hotels and they pay you commission.

Your friend must be an intelligent person with good coding knowledge.

I've started working in similar way. We can call it as a kind of small ERP system for one of my clients. His business is to rent cars to people, other companies etc.

All their work is manual. When anyone requests a car, they check their parking to see which cars are available and then book the car. They have no way to keep track of all the cars, when they are going, when coming back etc.

I've suggested them a system to book cars online, allowing their customers to check which cars are available and book them by providing some details like name, date when the car's required etc. Client seems to like the idea but he's thinking over it, so I'm just waiting.

[pwired]

What about making a website for your self about a specific topic that is interesting for many people. Build this website up for a couple of years, rank it up in google and then make money with google adsense / adwords and payed advertisements from local businesses ?

I know a german man who is living not far from me and who is working from home and made this website by him self (check the advertisements from the local shops and business)

http://www.comprendes.de

This website is for german tourists and german people who live in spain and this website is making enough money for him so that he can live from it. Just another example that it is really possible.

[Macrura]

I think one of the harder questions here is how do you create a project proposal for a really huge site project along with a project 'budget'.

I have been researching it and came across some interesting sites:

http://redfoxwebdesign.com.au/blog/getting_your_website_designed/how_much_does_a_website_cost

http://www.designquote.net/html/dq_estimate_wizard.cfm

https://quoterobot.com/

http://www.pearsonified.com/2006/06/how_much_should_a_design_cost.php

[Pete]

Thanks Macrura - I love the detail of the first link in your post. That chap has done an amazing job breaking it all down

The second link is... interesting. They have 3 hours down for a contact form and only 12 hours for an Android/iPhone app. I think the app could take longer than the rest, but then I'm not an expert in that area. The rest I suppose depends on your CMS as a contact form should technically take under an hour.

Quoterobot looks like it could be a great timesaver, but however you do your quotes, charge what you think you're worth. Somebody linked to this in another thread here, and whilst it's all useful info, there's a bit at the end where someone has thanked Mike for giving them the confidence to charge more - like Mike says, they were almost certainly charging too little:

http://vimeo.com/22053820

And the last link - I only realised recently that what he says is true and applicable to anything to do with web development. Another way to look at his statistic of 9/10 clients think the price is too high is that which would you rather have? 9 clients who have a hard time parting with $350 for example, or 1 client that is happy to part with $1500? He would need 4 of the cheaper jobs to cover what he makes in 1 at the higher price. Obviously I made some of those figures up for illustrative purposes, but you get the point. Of course, that's only workable if you can get away with charging that much and are comfortable enough financially and in general that you can turn away a job and wait for the next one if it's not quite right.