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apeisa

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Pixrael Sr. Member

Pixrael

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If we check the reviewer website (https://dougmcarthur.net/) then we understand why he sees the Processwire environment so difficult and complicated, even for Wordpress standards this website is very simple: a theme template and a couple of posts. Additionally for that plain homepage in the "recommended" Wordpress it needs:

  • Fully Loaded Time: 9.4s
  • Total Page Size: 5.68MB
  • Requests: 52
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teppo Hero Member

teppo

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Well, that was... interesting ?

I can only guess that someone somewhere used ProcessWire to build a really, really complex website (it's very much doable, and I've come across a few of those as well), and that's what this person is actually writing a review for. When you're not particularly familiar with ProcessWire or its inner workings, it's easy to take a look at a specific implementation and assume that it represents the entire platform (both in good and bad).

As always it'd be interesting to hear a bit more about the specifics that led to such outburst, but as it stands, this review provides little value for anyone.

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bernhard Hero Member

bernhard

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I don't think it's fair to blame him for his opinion. I think there are some valid points in it. He clearly has a non-tech marketing background and I can imagine that some kind of problems get a huge challenge with ProcessWire that are simply some clicks on other platforms. We know the pro's and con's, but if you don't have the technical background I can really understand that you get frustrated with ProcessWire. Not everybody has the time or will to learn things "from scratch".

The headline states that he assumes PW is great for developers, pretty bad for everyone else. While I don't agree 100% on that, the point that PW aims on developers is true. I'd maybe add that it is also great for clients. But that's not always the case, to be honest:

Quote

it's still a confusing mess when you compare it to some of the modern web development platforms like Squarespace or WordPress, both of which still offer the level of flexibility that most business users need, without the hopeless labyrinth that ProcessWire calls navigation.

I think we all have had situations where we've stored data (settings, lists of countries and so on) somewhere in the page tree, because that's the way to do it in PW... But that's not the way someone coming from other platforms would assume it to be. I guess they'd be looking for it somewhere in the menu, in some listings or whatsoever...

I've also needed @gebeer convincing me that it is a great platform. But I enjoy all the technical challenges, so that'll most likely be a totally different experience than someone who he calls "business users" might have ? 

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szabesz Hero Member

szabesz

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, bernhard said:

I don't think it's fair to blame him for his opinion.

I don't agree ? If a reviewer has no useful knowledge of a system he is reviewing (he states: "I assume"), then he should not do the review in the first place, so "You can't fix 'stupid'" is a proper way to put it in a few words, even though it is a bit offensive, sure, but he deserves it in this case, and we are writing in the Pub section...

Quote

"PW is for developers (I assume), pretty bad for everyone else"

I'd also like to point out that such a statement by the reviewer is dumb. He might also say that "Laravel is great for developers (I assume), pretty bad for everyone else.", for example. Reading his complete review, he clearly has no idea what he is talking about. PW's admin – by default – is for developers, so why comparing it to WP's and Squarespace's admin, which are for bloggers and such by default? Apples to oranges?

9 hours ago, bernhard said:

convincing me that it is a great platform

I am also a person who did not want to spend the time on exploring ProcessWire for the first time I installed it. At that time I was jumping on the WP bandwagon and thought: so many options to explore, I have no time to explore a yet another system. Later on, I realized what a piece of you-know-what WP's internals are, so I gave ProcessWire another chance, never regretting it, of course? 

Edited by szabesz
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bernhard Hero Member

bernhard

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38 minutes ago, bernhard said:

I don't think it's fair to blame him for his opinion.

That was related to all previous posts, not only psy's - even though I think "stupid" might be an unappropriate wording here ? But I didn't want to blame her for that either ? 

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psy Hero Member

psy

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"You can't fix 'stupid'" is an old saying. Sure PW is not for everyone and as the guy said, "Great for developers (I assume), pretty bad for everyone else". What got up my nose was he presents himself as a web developer/designer/guru and his own site is technically bad. Done well, PW is great for everyone. I suspect where he got lost was "assuming" that PW was a load the app, apply a FE theme, bung in a few plugins, squeeze your content to fit the theme and away you go.

The thing I love most about PW is the exact opposite. I have complete freedom to build my sites, backend, frontend & user-friendliness

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szabesz Hero Member

szabesz

Posted
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5 minutes ago, psy said:

https://dougmcarthur.net/

Thanks!

Quote

"No Results Found
The page you requested could not be found. Try refining your search, or use the navigation above to locate the post."

The above is where his "Home" main menu item leads to: http://moneyhole.me/dougmcarthur/

50 minutes ago, psy said:

and his own site is technically bad.

What's wrong with his WordPress site? ? 

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psy Hero Member

psy

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Another thing I love about PW is the friendly, supportive forum. I certainly don't want to be accused of trolling the guy. He put his opinion out there based on his experiences, as is his right. Should he venture here though, I'd be more than happy to help him with his PW site

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MatthewSchenker Hero Member

MatthewSchenker

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3 hours ago, szabesz said:

...I'd also like to point out that such a statement by the reviewer is dumb. He might also say that "Laravel is great for developers (I assume), pretty bad for everyone else.", for example. Reading his complete review, he clearly has no idea what he is talking about. PW's admin – by default – is for developers, so why comparing it to WP's and Squarespace's admin, which are for bloggers and such by default? Apples to oranges?...

Greetings,

I think you hit right at the point here. If people come to ProcessWire seeking a plugin-dependent, template-based system, they will have problems with it. (Of course, it's also not quite right to compare ProcessWire to Laravel, but that's at least a closer comparison). Over the past few years, I've treated ProcessWire like a Framework that includes built-in admin enhancements. My clients actually really like the default admin interface for most of their sites -- including those who came from WP.

Now, comparing ProcessWire to SquareSpace (or any of the other "site builders") is ridiculous, and anyone who makes that comparison is revealing their ignorance.

With all that, I'll still say what I've said for years: ProcessWire should be openly discussed as a hybrid framework/CMS. That way would reduce misunderstandings like that of this reviewer.

Matthew

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  • 3 months later...
szabesz Hero Member

szabesz

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Done too. I also added:

PRO – Easy to maintain, no need to update the system frequently.
The only driving force to update a ProcessWire system is the end-of-life policy of PHP. Because of the lack of security issues, updates are not required but can be performed easily if one wants to add new features.

And to be fair, I also added this (since the list we are dealing with has systems like that):

CON  – This CMS is not for those who just want to download a frontend theme.
ProcessWire has no concept of frontend themes like other CMSes have. Instead, you can customize some free frontends if you have basic HTML/CSS/PHP knowledge or hire a developer to implement a complete custom frontend according to your own needs.
Another option is to learn the basics of web development and you can implement your own frontend easily because that is one of the main strengths of the system: makes it easy to get into complex web development if you have the time to learn.

 

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Pixrael Sr. Member

Pixrael

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Posted
On 1/22/2020 at 8:48 AM, MatthewSchenker said:

ProcessWire should be openly discussed as a hybrid framework/CMS

Yes, for me it has worked as follows: I'm not brave and complex enough to go with Laravel, but I'm also not cowardly and simple enough to go with SquareSpace ? so Processwire fits me like a shoe ?

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jonatan Full Member

jonatan

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45 minutes ago, Pixrael said:

Yes, for me it has worked as follows: I'm not brave and complex enough to go with Laravel, but I'm also not cowardly and simple enough to go with SquareSpace ? so Processwire fits me like a shoe ?

Same! Haha

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