Is PW becoming more popular?

[Peter Knight]

One of the easier ways to tell is to search Google Trends

https://trends.google.co.uk/trends/explore?date=all&q=processwire

Mod note:

Hi all, 

The original poster was a spammer. He's been banned. The forum software has automatically promoted @Peter Knight as the new OP .

Edited October 3, 2017 by kongondo
Deleted spam, moved thread, etc

[szabesz]

4 hours ago, kingtravel said:

My take, it's more popular in Europe than other regions?

It's hard to tell just by taking a closer look at the forum or github because a lot of developers hardly ever post anything there nor they register at the forum. A better indicator would be some statistics on PW's downloads. If it grows, the platform grows too, I guess. At least this could be a useful conclusion even if it is a basic one  

2 minutes ago, Peter Knight said:

Google Trends

Hm, it is always hard to tell what search engines are actually "measuring", but it is better then nothing, I think  

[Peter Knight]

2 minutes ago, szabesz said:

Hm, it is always hard to tell what search engines are actually "measuring", but it is better then nothing, I think  

Google Trends monitors search queries entered into it's own search engine. It's like a stripped down version of their keyword tool for Adwords where they can tell you that.

 

 

[SamC]

59 minutes ago, Peter Knight said:

One of the easier ways to tell is to search Google Trends

https://trends.google.co.uk/trends/explore?date=all&q=processwire

Handy! Thanks @Peter Knight

[heldercervantes]

Personally I have the impression it's growing at a slow but steady pace. And though slow and steady is much better than fast and sloppy, it's a bit frustrating to see other platforms seeming to get more attention while being notoriously inferior.

I like following CMS Critic's Awards. PW has got a bunch of exposure there, but this year it's only nominated for "Best for SMEs" alongside Craft and ModX, both paid platforms. I'm guessing Craft will get that one because it looks polished and very DIY, and PW is too "pro" for that category.

Then there's "Best free CMS". PW is not there. You see the usual Joomla and Wordpress there, along with CMS Made Simple. That one just trying out the demo makes me cringe. It's so 2001 that I can't take it seriously. Now I've never used Joomla, but I constantly compare PW with Wordpress and can't comprehend how Wordpress still holds on to such a large chunk of the market.

"Best Open Source CMS". CMS Made Simple, ModX, Silverstripe. So I went to see what Silverstripe is all about. Now SS looks to use a somewhat similar approach to PW, and though it looks relatively polished, it doesn't feel as mature to me.

So we've got PW in one category this year, and the wrong one. To me that feels like a loss, which will reflect another dip in that Google Trends chart over the next year.

The next version will be an important step. Updating the default theme of the CMS is a must. I'm guessing most people now immediately install Reno's theme the second they enter the CMS after installing. So a new version with a new look will attract attention and that will hopefully pull it up a bit more.

If we want it to grow faster (an argument can be made whether that would be good or not), it's mostly a matter of getting more people to try it out. After getting the first project running, it's hard not to be hooked.

On an end note, I think it's time we start considering a refresh on the website. Just saying.

 

 

 

[szabesz]

2 hours ago, heldercervantes said:

can't comprehend how Wordpress still holds on to such a large chunk of the market

Do not forget that WordPress is click-and-play and can be easily pimped by googling around the web and pasting some hooks into functions.php. You can't beat that! WordPress is not even a CMS, by the way  it is a blog engine with a nice GUI.

Edited September 12, 2017 by szabesz
CMS :P

[Peter Knight]

30 minutes ago, heldercervantes said:

I like following CMS Critic's Awards. PW has got a bunch of exposure there, but this year it's only nominated for "Best for SMEs" alongside Craft and ModX, both paid platforms. I'm guessing Craft will get that one because it looks polished and very DIY, and PW is too "pro" for that category

 

MODX isn't paid. I was surprised to see it listed though as it's last big update was 2014-ish and is suffering as a result. Corresponding 5 year Google Trends chart attached. 

 

[StanLindsey]

I really want Processwire to take off and big a bigger player as it's my platform of choice. 

[szabesz]

I wish, I wish...  ProcessWire had loooooots of @ryans behind it. As it stands, we all depend on him. As long as he is with us, all is good though...

[SamC]

I think a theme refresh for the admin would make a big difference. Problem I have is I don't know how I'm gonna convince clients that PW is a better choice than WP. As in, off the top of my head:

1) They know WP, everyone talks about it, their mum told them it's amazing!

2) Themes.

3) When you leave, who's gonna take over their PW site long term?

4) They want extra functionality, you can't do it for whatever reason, who can?

5) I like the simplicity of the hierarchical tree in PW. So far, my clients have been a little confused because of hidden/unpublished pages. They think everything in the tree is on the site to view. In fairness, I may have missed a setting that makes these actually hidden from clients.  For example, one page that needed to be in the tree, but also hidden (to stop it being in the main menu) was a settings template. Client needed access to it, but it had to remain hidden.

6) Loads of plugins (whether good or bad, the client knows they're available). And they haven't looked into how they are coded, and why would they? They think they can simply install it and get going (although the truth differs somewhat).

7) Images/docs uploaded per page, not centrally. I've never liked this so much, however there is a paid module for media. If there is a file download on two different pages, this is awkward for the user. They can't just open 'all docs' or something and just sling it in.

8) They think WP is free, as in, downtime after being hacked, decent plugins are paid, you need plugins to do things a proper CMS just has as standard... not so free really.

Now I've really liked PW from the get go, but in reality, I can't see how I can avoid learning WP too. Literally all the web design jobs round here list the same requirements, HTML, PHP, CSS, JS/jQuery, Wordpress. I've spent a fair bit of time with PW and this really irks me.

--EDIT--

So I just looked up how to make some basic custom fields, post types and custom menus in WP as a refresher. It made me sad. And made me think twice about going down that road.

[apeisa]

3 hours ago, heldercervantes said:

So we've got PW in one category this year, and the wrong one. To me that feels like a loss, which will reflect another dip in that Google Trends chart over the next year.

CMS critic is one website and not even a very popular one. It has done great stuff promoting PW (and many other systems out there), but it is very small amount of visibility.

ProcessWire is steadily pushing forward, but it is true that some systems did get more popular in much faster - especially craft. See this https://trends.google.co.uk/trends/explore?date=all&q=processwire,craft cms (I believe they did get most users from dying Expression Engine community where they were popular plugin authors).

I think ProcessWire is "old dog" now for most - it isn't "new and interesting" anymore, so all kind of marketing "gimmicks" should be used. New features should be promoted much more (videos, tutorials, blog posts etc). Ryan is doing most of the development, weekly posts and supporting his paid modules, so this is something where community - all of us - could help. 

Also I believe that this website, docs, tutorials etc are those parts of this project that can be most easily delegated to community. Another one is having official starter themes (site profiles) and admin theme. We have amazing amount of design and development talent here, I wish we could collaborate more easily.

We all know Ryan is busy, so do not wait for green light and guidance - if you feel like you could do something for our community - just build it and share it! More people will pick interest and great things will happen!

[maxf5]

Maybe @ryan can "share jobs" to the community much more that we can help.

I think these points are outdated and had to be done first:
a) default admin theme -  it will pay more attention to people who are making the first steps into PW
b) new branding/ci for PW. these identity now with the skyscrapers on facebook is looking so 90ties..
c) like @apeisa said, a new stylish/modern PW website. A powerful start-page showing the features. ( of course also updated docs, tuts,..)

thinking of a clean design like pagekit ( https://pagekit.com )

 

[louisstephens]

I think a comprehensive doc would help greatly  with new users or people on the fence. I know this has been discussed to death, but one place for the api/cheatsheet/tutorials with snippets/starting points would give first time users a confidence boost. I feel like I spend hours (if my project is large) googling and jumping between the references. It can be a bit disheartening at time. With all that being said,  it doesn't seem to be "as bad" as when I was first starting out as I now have a better grasp on functions/the flow of PW.

I have started moving away from granting access to the backend for in house projects, and instead, building "backends" on top of PW for them to use. I found it easier to give them only what they need to see than to have them getting scared of the page tree. I understand that PW is pretty much open ended and is only limited by your imagination, but maybe (dare I say) a template with the barebones for a dashboard/backend  (perhaps with some ajax) built on top of PW could be helpful as well for new users. I know I still struggle with working ajax into projects and making something flashy, and examples always help (like live page listing refreshes etc). Understandably, this couldn't be a one size fits all, but it would be a great jumping off point for the newly initiated and make it more comfortable when granting access to the client or whomever the project is intended (Only intended if that workflow suites the project I know). The backend isn't such a scary place, but to whomever doesn't need all of the tree, could be nice. 

Well, I will end my ramblings, but thought I would throw my 2 cents out there.

[Peter Knight]

2 hours ago, apeisa said:

 believe they did get most users from dying Expression Engine community where they were popular plugin authors).

That's an important point. Pixel & Tonic were already the developers of several of EEs most crucial extras and presumably had thousands of EE users on their database. 

When they started Craft they not only had a ready to go marketing list of people who were A) fed up with EEs development but also fans of Pixel and Tonic too. 

I wont go into details of how they announced Craft at an Expression Engine conference ?

Anyway their climb to fame is well deserved but a little unnatural Vs how most CMS grow their profile. 

[fbg13]

10 minutes ago, Peter Knight said:

announced Craft at an Expression Engine conference

Would be great if @ryan could/would attend a conference and talk about PW. Or even someone else and work with ryan on the speech.

[Peter Knight]

9 hours ago, fbg13 said:

Would be great if @ryan could/would attend a conference and talk about PW. Or even someone else and work with ryan on the speech.

Has there ever been a PW meetup? I know some of the other CMS guys do it. Organise a few days at a hotel with a meeting room. Get to chat with other developers, talk about the roadmap. See some presentations etc etc and examples of work.

[szabesz]

1 hour ago, Peter Knight said:

Organise a few days at a hotel with a meeting room.

Let's do it! There is enough of us interested:
https://weekly.pw/polls/

Probably in Finland as you have shown us  Just kidding. But somewhere in Europe where most of us can drive or fly to "cheap".

Edited September 13, 2017 by szabesz
typo

[SamC]

12 hours ago, louisstephens said:

I have started moving away from granting access to the backend for in house projects, and instead, building "backends" on top of PW for them to use. I found it easier to give them only what they need to see than to have them getting scared of the page tree. I understand that PW is pretty much open ended and is only limited by your imagination, but maybe (dare I say) a template with the barebones for a dashboard/backend  (perhaps with some ajax) built on top of PW could be helpful as well for new users.

This exactly. Drupal had a module (can't remember the name) but when clients would log in, they would get a bunch of blocks like latest posts with EDIT/DELETE next to each etc. and stuff like that. They didn't see the proper admin at all.

I'm quite liking the front end editing, as a user only needs to log in and then they can edit their pages right there on the page they're looking at rather than needing the admin area.

I'm starting to learn how to build more 'user-centric' sites now and the big question I always have:

1) Do I provide a custom login form that goes to some kind of dashboard i.e. they never touch the admin area. Caveat being that the dashboard would need to let them upload images, edit content, basically do all the stuff they can do in the admin area anyway.

OR

2) Let them use the standard login form (which is easily redirected to if a user doesn't have permission to view a page) and then use the page tree with strict user permissions, i.e. they end up with a 'tree' with about one branch (if editing their profile is all that's allowed).

I'm finding it a bit confusing as I've never had the chance to see how experienced people do it. That's always the problem to a beginner. 10mins logged in to a pro site and you'd move forward so much quicker.

[szabesz]

4 minutes ago, SamC said:

1) Do I provide a custom login form that goes to some kind of dashboard i.e. they never touch the admin area. Caveat being that the dashboard would need to let them upload images, edit content, basically do all the stuff they can do in the admin area anyway.

OR

2) Let them use the standard login form (which is easily redirected to if a user doesn't have permission to view a page) and then use the page tree with strict user permissions, i.e. they end up with a 'tree' with about one branch.

It is possible to merge the two to your advantage. I have not find a thorough guide/tutorial/example-site for this though. I am missing the experience too so I am slowly learning ProcessWire tiny bits-by-bits every day. At least I'm enjoying it  

5 minutes ago, SamC said:

That's always the problem to a beginner.

We are in the same boat in this area  

[SamC]

4 minutes ago, szabesz said:

We are in the same boat in this area  

We should work on a project together then and combine what we've learned so far. Can use git and all that fancy stuff that I still don't understand 

[szabesz]

Just now, SamC said:

Can use git and all that fancy stuff that I still don't understand

I told you we are in the same boat  I have basic git knowledge level because I work on my own and found it time consuming to use it when I have other ways to manage my own code. But those tools are only for a singe developer, of course. But hey, they do work for me (only).

3 minutes ago, SamC said:

We should work on a project together

I'm always willing to but currently I have no extra time. This is what holds back ProcessWire's growth. We are all busy working for the living, hard to take a break for a while. My own blog is crying for more too...

[adrian]

On the issue of 

6 hours ago, SamC said:

1) Do I provide a custom login form that goes to some kind of dashboard i.e. they never touch the admin area. Caveat being that the dashboard would need to let them upload images, edit content, basically do all the stuff they can do in the admin area anyway.

OR

2) Let them use the standard login form (which is easily redirected to if a user doesn't have permission to view a page) and then use the page tree with strict user permissions, i.e. they end up with a 'tree' with about one branch (if editing their profile is all that's allowed).

We're getting very OT here, but I have handled this is many different way depending on needs, but this module (originally by @apeisa and fixed for PW 3 by @teppo can actually be a great starting point for a frontend user interface: https://github.com/teppokoivula/AdminBar

You will want to skin it to match your site etc, but it can look and work really well, eg:

[szabesz]

32 minutes ago, adrian said:

We're getting very OT here

Sounds off topic but may not be so. As pointed out earlier and above, documentation is an important part of the success. Everyone knows that (probably...)  And building front-end logins, forms, admins, dashboards, modules and stuff like that is not documented, except for module and core code comments and hard to scan blog posts, of course. But those are hidden bits of information and kinda time consuming to dig up. Also, basic frontend design tutorials are outdated.

I propose to make 2018 the year of the documentation, so to speak. What if we could stop hunting for new features for a while and concentrate on the following in 2018:

• new processwire.com
• new UIkit admin theme
• documentation: updated basic frontend design tutorials and lots of real world form API tutorials for the masses.

Just my two cents here

[adrian]

3 minutes ago, szabesz said:

Sounds off topic but may not be so.

Sorry, I was more talking about my post rather than what you guys were posting.

I completely agree with your goals for 2018. In fact I am currently trying to convince a Drupal shop to go with ProcessWire. They don't want to touch Drupal 8 and I have an PW advocate on their team, but we both agree that PW needs a more modern look (website and admin theme) to help convince their clients. Unfortunately it's often not enough that things work great, they also have to look great and look like they will work great - the whole "judging a book by it's cover thing" - as devs we hopefully don't do that, but clients will!

[SamC]

1 hour ago, adrian said:

https://github.com/teppokoivula/AdminBar

You will want to skin it to match your site etc, but it can look and work really well, eg:

Much better! I was gonna attempt to make a module that did this. Maybe I could adapt the module so skinning it would be easier i.e. a bunch of premade ones with added radio buttons in the module settings to choose skin. Food for thought, might get me into the modules game a bit, see how they work etc.

Drupal had a great admin bar, much like the above. If a client is on a page, I see it as absolutely essential they have an edit link visible on that page. No way do I expect them to open a new tab, find the tree, find the page, click edit... bleeeurgh.

An admin bar makes a lot of sense to clients, I've seen them use it. Thanks @adrian