Wp Tavern Article And Processwire Themes

[Joss]

Dazzyweb

Yes, I have mentioned this before, that a version of processwire could be built that is "themeable" or anything elseable. Including JQuery plugins for dancing girls or what every is the current favourites on Drumlapress.

However, I feel this should be a completely separate project (basically a profile project) that is maintained separately and so does not confuse the brand values of the core ProcessWire project.

[Nico Knoll]

I think all that is needed for a theme system is a module. Combined with this default site profile. 

[Joss]

I think all that is needed for a theme system is a module. Combined with this default site profile. 

I think you would probably want to take it further than just themes, so that it is closer to the functionality of Joomla or WP out of the box.

But I have to say that this would hold no interest for me - it is not what I came to ProcessWire looking for.

[dazzyweb]

However, I feel this should be a completely separate project (basically a profile project) that is maintained separately and so does not confuse the brand values of the core ProcessWire project.

Yes, I can understand your point about confusing brand values. A profile project might be the way. But I think if done correctly the 2 worlds could coexist.

I think all that is needed for a theme system is a module. Combined with this default site profile. 

I think there are a few different ways that this could be done. Maybe a module could be the way. A choice could be made to include this on install for those that that want to install standardised themes. A special directory could be made for such themes.

[Joss]

I know I have said this before, but actually I find the default profile misleading. It hints towards AMS (article management systems) like Joomla and WP with a title field and large content area, whereas the true strength of ProcessWire is in the fact that you can start with no fields and then go which ever direction you like.

This is why, for me personally, I would love the default to actually be a clean, blank install and then have a "Demo profile" as an optional download, which would replace the current default profile.

When choosing which to download (or install, however it is finally managed) a little more emphasis could be placed on the fact there are other profiles available which may give you different starting points, like the one you are talking about here.

This also may reduce the artificial comparisons between PW and Drumlapress and help PW to stand out more on its own.

[MatthewSchenker]

Hello,

If ProcessWire goes down the road of theming, I would be very vocally against it.

Along with "themes" comes a set of assumptions and core approaches that many of us detest.  One of the main reasons I fled from Joomla, Drupal, WordPress is specifically because of theming.

Anyway, providing themes would be a temporary attraction to people accustomed to the way the "Big Three" CMSs work.  The moment users of those other systems need something further, they again would have to understand core design/markup/interactive web technologies.  Beyond superficial themes, the general fact that ProcessWire is different will become apparent again.  In other words, the differences between ProcessWire and the Big Three goes far beyond profiles or themes.  It's somewhat of a waste of energy for us to appeal to Big Three users with themes or profiles.

I think we need to be clear that ProcessWire is a system that expects you to take some initiative to get up to speed on the core web technologies.  It is not, and should not become, a system that "does it for you."  It may be difficult to accept, but ProcessWire will never appeal to most WordPress/Drupal/Joomla users for that reason.

Thanks,

Matthew

[Nico Knoll]

I won't tell to much but I'm currently working on a theme module anyway. Website is already kind of ready: http://processthemes.com/

But I think we all should agree on at least one thing: ProcessWire should never integrate a real theme engine in it's core. never.

[teppo]

I'm going to agree with Nico here; a properly built theming system, separate from core package, would be a godsend. I'm assuming that nobody really means that, but I can't help noticing that every time a discussion about having more site profiles, easier installation for site profiles, some sort of theming etc. raises it's head, there's a sudden and mutual urge to kill it with fire.

The way I see it ...

1. Site profiles are not away from core development. Ryan doesn't have to spend his time working on these. Easy method of picking the profile you like during installation would be cool, but not necessary.
2. Theming isn't evil per se. We don't need theming support in core, we can build it using modules (as Nico said) or simply using template level code. I've done both.. without losing my sanity.
3. If someone feels that having easy-to-use site profiles and plug-in modules is away from hardcore developers and flexibility of the core itself, think again. These are not mutually exclusive things.

Just my five cents. Take it with a grain of salt, please -- I'm in the middle of coding streak and just needed to vent my brain for a sec. Keep on keeping on.

[Manfred62]

My reason to work with PW (formerly with MODX) is exactly because it gives me all the freedom to build my own site. I know HTML, CSS, semantics etc. Therefore I absolutely have no need for such click and play systems like Droomlapress. So I hope, PW will stay on the same route like nowadays.

BTW: this discussion now has nothing to do with the topic "ProcessWire on the web"? Better moving this posts in an new thread, maybe under "Wishlist"?

[LostKobrakai]

The point which I miss in the discussion is quite simple. As a non-developer user wordpress is very much a blogpost-and-pages management system, not a content management system. Everyone which has the knowledge to turn wordpress into something more, also has enough knowledge to use processwire efficiently. The author of the article seems not to be one of those and even named what he wants to get a "Publishing System" in the headline. So the comparison was flawed from the beginning. He wants something, that processwire doesn't want or claim to be.

The added discussion about themes, in my opinion, is also not correct. A theme is a readymade frontend-design for a specific purpose. The only difference to, what everyone here is doing only for his client, is that a theme is purchaseable/downloadable by the masses. Maybe some added simple customisation options from the backend. Just like some wordpress themes come with special extra functionality over the blogpost-and-pages base, a processwire theme does deliver only the functionality needed for the chosen purpose. In both cases, if more functionality is needed, than provided, you need someone to code the rest on top.

[Joss]

I can see that a theming system would be popular, but I don't think it would be a Godsend - a lot of developers simply would not use it as it would not fit with their way of working. I would be one of those - I am really enjoying not having to bend someone else's theme to my will but being able to start from scratch (or work on top of a framework of my choice) using basic HTML and CSS knowledge.

But that is not to argue against themes - they have their place too.

And yes, this probably ought to be split off to another topic!

[MadeMyDay]

Aren't site profiles exactly made for all this? Why are there so few profiles made yet? I think because PW was never intended for plug&play and everyone learns that (after perhaps 60 minutes time if 30 are too short). And this was and ever will be a good decision.

[dazzyweb]

teppo, I totally agree. I couldn't have said it better.

Also I don't see why 2 ways of doing things can't coexist.

After all isn't that the point of Processwire that we are open to build things with as much flexibility as possible.

I don't see anything wrong with having other options especially if it raises Processwire profile.

I can't wait for the day I never hear "Can't you build that in Wordpress".

I think that what Nico is working on or something similar can only help Processwire and also developers that use Processwire if only that it raises Processwires profile.

[teppo]

It's a good thing that ProcessWire has the flexibility of an Olympic gymnast. We can already extend it to so many different ways without having to somehow compromise the core package. Whether it's new site profiles, theming systems or whatever we can dream up, that's already doable. Doesn't mean that everyone has to love and use them, though.

What I'm trying to say here is essentially that it's not away from you if someone builds a themable site profile. You don't have to use that, you are free to keep on doing what you're already doing. Relax. 

As an example of this from slightly different angle, I personally have a very strong dislike of so-called templating systems. From my point of view they complicate things unnecessarily and only result in worse quality. I'm still happy every time I hear that someone has built a cool templating system module for ProcessWire or a cool site using Twig / Smarty / whatever.

That's good for them -- and what's good for them is usually good for the community.

If we want to go after big wp audience, then we would really need to focus on things like themes, plug and play modules etc. I would keep our audience where it is (people who are build websites, rookies and experienced). When developers are in, the rest will follow.

This is one comment here that really stuck with me, but not necessarily for the most obvious reason. I've seen many (nowadays) very competent developers emerging from the muddy waters of less flexible CMS'. I guess I mean that this works the other way around too; low barrier of entry brings in developers who might not be that experienced yet, but once they get the feel of it they can become very productive members of the community.

Seen that happen here too.

On the other hand, it's kind of sad seeing how some folks grow (professionally) in an environment that forces them to bad practices, and once they've reached a level at which they could do something really awesome, they keep trying to force that inflexible system to do something it was never intended to do, because it's the only thing they really know and jumping into another environment entirely is a scary thing to do.

[LostKobrakai]

I guess I mean that this works the other way around too; low barrier of entry brings in developers who might not be that experienced yet, but once they get the feel of it they can become very productive members of the community.

Seen that happen here too.

I've done it this way. I started my experience with some clan/guild cms's, learned some php with copy&paste, moved to joomla, learned more php, build my first templates, moved to wordpress, build a more sofisticated template, moved to processwire and felt free. No education other than learning by doing. With some free themes everyone could get in easily. Maybe someday they want to move some box to another place and learn about the api behind the theme. If they get interested they'll continue digging around and maybe some day develope their own themes.

[marcus]

As an example of this from slightly different angle, I personally have a very strong dislike of so-called templating systems. From my point of view they complicate things unnecessarily and only result in worse quality. I'm still happy every time I hear that someone has built a cool templating system module for ProcessWire or a cool site using Twig / Smarty / whatever.

It's important to remark that templating systems (twig, etc) or "MVC-like" approaches to separate concerns and click-and-grab-a-theme systems are different kinds of animals I don't imply that you meant that, teppo, just for fellow readers of this thread...

[teppo]

@marcus: good point. Just wanted to use that as an example of a somewhat divisive feature that can be (and, in fact, has already been) added on top of core package without compromising the integrity of the core itself at all

[pwired]

Imagine what would happen if PW should change into an out of the box cms with shiny templates,

plug and play, 1 click add-on's, etc. etc.

Everything would start to degrade right away even the forum. The inner architecture of pw is one

of the clear reasons why this forum is filled with talented coders, people who know what they are doing

and people who want to learn. A great side effect of working with pw and being on this forum is that it

pushes less talented coders to upgrade their coding skills. This is many times the preferred way.

If people need shiny templates, banners, slideshows or other things

then tutorials on how to do this with pw would be the best way I think.

[LostKobrakai]

Imagine what would happen if PW should change into an out of the box cms with shiny templates, …

Nothing would change as people, who are happy with a ready to install template, wouldn't even care if it's build on processwire or in wordpress or something other. Page-profiles already do install a shiny template, but they can be build more easily/powerful as the wordpress ones. The people, who try to alter it in a serious way, will be more than happy to face a great cms with talented people on the forums. Templates aren't more than a prepacked website like all the ones we build here, only that they'll be used by more than one client.

The plug&play mentality of wordpress is another issue. I work with a client, who tried to install a members-only area + simple shop on their wordpress website with only little html/css knowledge. Didn't work out for him, but that's stuff that a client should not be able to even try.

[horst]

@LostKobrakai: You are right, but only to, maybe 80 - 90%. I also can understand pwired a bit. Just imagine the client from your example chooses PW one day because it supports 1-click theme-switching for those who are willing to use it. Additionally to that he can import a whole WP-blogsite content by using the WP-migrator with only clicking two or three buttons. What do you think does this do to him if he later on want to extend his site with a cool shopping cart, a newsletter system and some other shiny things he has read from here? I bet he think that this can be done with just clicking some buttons, because he has changed to PW because he has heard this is better than XY before. Also his first steps really only needed some simple clicks. So why should he think that this cannot be done that easy? Also the community is so friendly and helpful. - If he has only little or no HTML/CSS skills and no PHP/JS skills, (and maybe he also has no interest in learning this), I only can say: good luck and a lot of patience with such new users. So, it will be different with those who are able and willing to understand the differences of application modules. We should do it in a relaxed manner. One of the best goods here (besides PW itself) is the helpful and kind community. And it takes time to "assimilate" new users from that spectrum. Also I think it only could be a small amount at a time. - The worst case would be if they try to assimilate us

[dazzyweb]

I think that pwired and horst have made some good points regarding the possible impact on the forum.

Regarding online communities I have to say that the Processwire forum is the best I have seen and very valuable.

I was just thinking today this place is better than the pub.

[Nico Knoll]

Fun fact: This is the pub

[Joss]

I still think that if a complex profile were to be created that had theming, widgets, other expected fair, then it should be on its own site with its own support.

It would be "built" on ProcessWire, but it would no longer be the core PW.

Likewise, if a full blown e-commerce system was built on PW (now, that would make far more sense as a project), then that too should be on its own site with its own support structure.

There is a bit of me that says that to create a themable version of PW seems more to be fulfilling the idea of attracting WP type users, than does it achieve anything huge.

I am part way writing a tutorial to help WP and Joomla designers and developers to make the transition to PW. It is not a technical "how to" but more about how you need to change you way of planning and working and thinking.

In the process, it strikes me that there are already lots of perfectly good "out-of-the-box" pop-up type CMS solutions out there. As I write the tutorial and explain the strengths, they tend to be more about the fact that is hasn't got a theme or template engine, that it does not rely on bespoke plugins to create functionality and so on.

Its core strength is that unlike WordPress which is really an AMS (Article Management System), ProcessWire is a true Content management System - you create content with it and then you manage it. Separately you work out how to display it.

Importantly, if you discard the current default profile and, instead, install it with a blank profile, its strengths are much more obvious, The default profile with sample pages and some images, misleads you into thinking it is something like the rest of the AMSs out there. When you have nothing except a title field, an admin.php and a home.php (no html of course, just a single $page->title call on its own), then its nature as a true CMS is clear. 

To paraphrase old MS marketing:

"Welcome to PW. What content would you like to manage today?"

[mr-fan]

From my point of view - the critical points of PW in that article are the best for me

Some day i've read a very interesting article about "Are you a tooler?" (i think it was AListApart - not shure)

So for me i was until now in the world of "toolers" - using this addon, snippet, module to make the system i choose to do what i want - because in lack of skills to bending this system complet to fit my/customers needs.

Always willing to learn and helped some real devs out with testing and translating - to get some help on the different things.

And now with ProcessWire i feel like i'm a "thinker"!!

I've ONE tool to use in different kind of models/usecases/options to get what i want.

Ok as usual and first i've tested all the modules and addons in the rack - but i feel they are all just needed for a special propose and not to get a website work great like this is the fact for the drulapress CMS world!!

Every week i'm reading this forum i'll get new ideas how to use PW from this really great community (Like to set up a "onliner" with a hidden pagetree to get a complete tagsystem running or other usefull stuff)

Themes are for me no problem - get a HTML Theme from ever you want and setup is done in about let's say "30 minutes"

So are you a tooler or a thinker?

Are we talking about a software that helps you working without a limit -

or a tool that complete works for you but always have it's limitations you have to take?

Thankyou Ryan for this one great tool - thank all others here as far as i read this forum - here is a meetup with great people!

2 cents from a guy that love PW after 30 minutes testing

[yellowled]

My 2 cents, and sorry if I'm repeating things that have already been said – didn't have the time to read everything already posted here.

Wordpress has become vastly popular as a blog system. It is being used by a gazillion of people worldwide, most of them not very tech-savvy, which is why there is a huge market for prefabricated themes and plugins. It started out as a small open source project, but is now – at least partially – being developed by a company with about 250 employees plus a very active community of freelance developers. Due to its huge popularity, it has morphed into a system which can also be used as a CMS. This exponential growth into the most popular content publishing system worldwide has taken it's toll. It's bloated, there are unmaintained plugins, it has security issues and if you look closely, the sheer number of themes and plugins does not necessarily say much about their quality. (Did I just hear someone say “Windows”? Nevermind.)

ProcessWire is a content management framework/system which was originally developed by a single developer. The community is picking up lately with more people developing plugins as well as contributing to the core while the system also gains traction with a small, but loyal user community. It's clearly not a system for everyone, mostly based on the design of the system. It might never become a system for end users, but obviously it has become rather popular among developers looking for certain features in a CMF/CMS.

Why anyone would seriously want to compare both systems is beyond me.