Introduction into Processwire in German?

[pwired]

What cms have you been using before ? Processwire doesn´t work the typical "cms" way so you might need to adapt. The forum is already loaded with answers about these matters so just have a look. You can start from here: https://processwire.com/talk/topic/4173-grouped-forum-posts-links-articles-tutorials-code-snippets/ and from there start digging the forum.

[fermion]

@mr-fan

In my posting before I wrote, that I appreciate it, when a system tells you, when there's a problem and what you should do to solve it. So I fully agree with you in that.
Do you think the message https://www.dropbox.com/s/7tanf2elkn7lvxg/Screenshot 2018-02-28 10.29.44.png?dl=0 informs the user in the best way, which is possible?

Thanks for your nice offer, to send you a PN in german. I hope it will not be neccessary, but who knows

@pwired

I have no experience with CMS at all. So I do not have to adapt from habbits of another CMS.

But probably I have to adapt my wish to get  code as clean and consise as handwritten html. I have no idea of how far it is possible to get really consise code with PW. I will explore that. Thanks for the helpful list of links and questions. It's bookmarked.
 

[szabesz]

3 hours ago, fermion said:

Do you think the message https://www.dropbox.com/s/7tanf2elkn7lvxg/Screenshot 2018-02-28 10.29.44.png?dl=0 informs the user in the best way, which is possible?

You are quite right. Currently this requirement in completely undocumented, however it should be. Such a hint is not enough, this issue deservers more than that.

Could you please add a request similar to this one: https://github.com/processwire/processwire-requests/issues/148

You might want add the links to @jmartsch's example in this topic and to these topics as well:

• https://processwire.com/talk/topic/16967-confused-about-server-locales
• https://processwire.com/talk/topic/15691-warning-about-server-locale-after-update-from-3052-3053-help/

 

[fermion]

@szabesz

Thanks for your feedback. But I'm the wrong person for adding a request at github. My English is to poor. And my knowledge about the task is near zero.

Thanks to all who all helped me in this thread. Good night!

[szabesz]

@fermion Ok, I will find the time to post that request. Night-night!

[fermion]

On 28.2.2018 at 8:59 PM, horst said:

Long story short: your host simply misses the local setting. It is the same like with your Computer System, e.g. Windows. If it wouldn't have set any locale, you may get the (for you) wrong english settings. Wrong date, time and float values, etc. etc. It is a missing PHP init setting on your (bought) host.

I send that to the admin of my webserver. He disagreed and told me:
 

Quote

<https://github.com/processwire/processwire-issues/issues/184>
Wenn eine Anwendung einen Locale haben will, soll sie ihn halt setzen,
dafür gibt es ja die Funktion setlocale().

Ich habe noch nie erlebt, dass bei einer nicht gesetzten globalen
Locale-Einstellung (was übrigens dem Standard bei PHP entspricht, siehe
auch <http://php.net/manual/de/intl.configuration.php>) eine
Fehlermeldung kommt. Weder DokuWiki, WordPress, NextCloud oder
PHPMyAdmin haben deswegen jemals ein Problem gehabt.

Translation from me:

Quote

<https://github.com/processwire/processwire-issues/issues/184>

When an application want's a Locale, than she should set it. Therefor the function setlocale() exists.
I have never seen an error message, when a globally setting Locale has not been set (which is the standard of PHP, see <http://php.net/manual/de/intl.configuration.php>). Not DokuWiki, Wordpress, NextCloud or PHPMyAdmin hat ever had a problem.

What do you think? Is there may be a bug in PW?

[horst]

Hi,

A) it is not a problem that PW has. Every one with this meaning should have a closer look to the screen that you have posted to dropbox:

The software is running without problems. It informs you, the superuser, about something language related, at a stage where it cannot know what you want to do with the site.

B) It is not a bug, it is a warning or information to the superuser which is the admin. These sort of informations are never displayed to users, only to superuser(s). Superusers are some sort of bus drivers, right? They need to know how much fuel is available and if the tire pressure is to low or not. The other users don't need to know all that informations, they are not driving the bus.

C) If you use a default english windows system, bought as a german in germany, and it has no de_locale settings, is this a bug? Or is it disrespectful, that it doesn't assume that the most clients may be germans and may want to use german language with german dates and german float numbers?

I don't want to become nitpicking here. If a user has no knowledge of the nature of default PHP installations, how should he know that it is set for EN-locale and not DE? Does the hosting company welcome you in english or in german on their websites? (If they do in german, it is a clear sign for me that they assume you are a german person.)

Maybe one can say that both ways have their pros and cons? If a PC-software informs you about a configuration of your system, that has potential to be not correct for your usage, it is one way that may help users with no knowledge about a special fact. But other then a hosting company in a special country, PW cannot "assume" the most used language there, PW is installed around the world. IMO, a hosting company may assume this, but also don't need to act upon it! It is like with a car dealer, he can buy you a car or ten cars, without to care if you can drive or have a driver licence. Should he do care?

An example: If a person with no knowledge uses something two years long, without to get confronted with some facts that may need recognition or a decision, the person will have the same level of knowledge in this regard after the two years.

If a person gets confronted with those facts and get pushed a bit to start to look behind the scenes of some things, he/she will have more knowledge after the two years.

Is more knowledge usefull or obstructive? (You see, we are now on the floor called philosophy. )

As another example, take your own current situation: You don't understand exactly what this locale thing is or means. Is it a bug, is it an information, is it related to PHP, to PW, to something else? You are sitting between all chairs of your friend, a hosting company and some PW lovers. Not as comfortable as it could be. If you would have get some knowledge about that thing in the past, you simply would know all relevant facts about it on your own and you now already would have done some experiments with building your site. You already would have made your hands dirty with coding.
 

IMHO, its PWs philosophy to force the (super)users into a bit more knowledge. But it is up to you, the superuser (or bus driver), which route you want to follow. Do you want to take the red pil or the blue pil?

https://youtu.be/OuJ87X9YX3c?t=57

Maybe you know the SELFHTML project in germany? It's slogan was or is: Die Energie des Verstehens (The energy of understanding). It was my ever goto reference since I started with webstuff in 1998/1999. (Now you know the time when I decided to take the red one )

 

To sum up: Neither the hosting company is wrong, not to assume a default language, nor PW is. It's only my personal opinion when I said that it could be more by the hosting company to assume a default language, than it could be by PW. But neither the web host is buggy nor PW is in this regard.

 

PS: Also, for me it is not a question which pil is yours. Only question for me is: Do you already have taken it, or are you just in the moment before it?

 

Edited March 2, 2018 by horst
added URL to SELFHTML and corrected their slogan

[Askaaron]

Concerning this warning about the missing locale:

Indeed one should just exactly do, what the warning says - open the given links to the Core Translation Files, look for the "C" and then enter "en_US.UTF-8" for the locale, which should be used for PHP.

When you want to change this again later, you will find that under Setup -> Languages -> Language and then the "edit" link in the section "Core Translation Files".

If you need German (or any other) as language - you have to add it first in Setup -> Languages using "Add New".

Hope I got it all right - because so far I have exactly no experience with ProcessWire at all. This is just what I found out by looking at it (really).

[horst]

30 minutes ago, Askaaron said:

Concerning this warning about the missing locale:

Indeed one should just exactly do, what the warning says - open the given links to the Core Translation Files, look for the "C" and then enter "en_US.UTF-8" for the locale, which should be used for PHP.

@Askaaron, thanks for shiming in here. You are right, I haven't read thouroughful enough the warning itself and has not go deep enough into this issue. Instead I have tried to explain the more overall behave of PW.

As I use my own starter profiles with PW for years now, I never came across this issue myself. Maybe @szabesz allready does? At least he said he will add an issue report for it at github?

Thanks again for clarifying on the main question.

[theo]

I don't think this locale problem is that important.

But there is another thing: The default .htaccess file almost always (remote or local) throws a "500 Internal Server Error" here during installation.

This can be discouraging for newbies.

I always have to uncomment:

# Options -Indexes
# Options +FollowSymLinks
# Options +SymLinksifOwnerMatch

Wouldn't there be less problematic standard settings?

500 is really a nasty message, as it gives you no hint about what to do.

[zoeck]

7 minutes ago, theo said:

Wouldn't there be less problematic standard settings?

500 is really a nasty message, as it gives you no hint about what to do.

It depends on your webserver and its configuration...

With my old hoster, there was no problem with the standard htaccess file, but with my new - i have to uncomment the lines

# 1. Don't show directory indexes, but do follow symbolic links 
# 500 NOTE: Some cloud hosting companies don't allow +FollowSymLinks. 
# Uncomment +SymLinksifOwnerMatch and comment +FollowSymLinks if you have 500 errors. 
# If that doesn't resolve the error, then set it back to +FollowSymLinks. 

 

[theo]

2 minutes ago, zoeck said:

It depends on your webserver and its configuration...

With my old hoster, there was no problem with the standard htaccess file, but with my new - i have to uncomment the lines

 

Sure, but it is a really bad "first experience".

That's why I wonder if there aren't any more compatible standard settings.

[zoeck]

1 minute ago, theo said:

Sure, but it is a really bad "first experience".

theres a installation manual with this informations  

https://processwire.com/docs/install/

And the troubleshooting  

https://processwire.com/docs/install/troubleshooting/

[theo]

It's about the first experience.

Nobody RTFM before installing.

Probably the Installer should warn before renaming the htaccess.txt, because afterwards it's dead and silent.

[cstevensjr]

3 hours ago, theo said:

It's about the first experience.

Nobody RTFM before installing.

Probably the Installer should warn before renaming the htaccess.txt, because afterwards it's dead and silent.

What is one to do when someone willingly chooses not to read the provided instructions or refuses to abide by any restrictions that are prominently explained? 

A lack of adequate documentation is one thing and should be brought to the attention of the Module Developer.

[szabesz]

One of ProcessWire's strength is its .htaccess file. I've never come across another CMS which such a useful one. A lot of security and other issues are taken care of, most of the time we just have to read the inline comments and comment/uncomment lines. If that is not enough, ProcessWire's documentation is adequate in this area, but just in case one runs into issues not yet documented, this forum is full of help. For example, I wanted to remove www from the domain, and in the forum there is a good solution to do just that.

Sure, first impression does matter but .htaccess issues can be complex, and most of the time ProcessWire just runs without modifying anything in .htaccess.

[fermion]

On 2.3.2018 at 9:27 AM, horst said:

The software is running without problems. It informs you, the superuser, about something language related, at a stage where it cannot know what you want to do with the site.

I disagree, Horst.

It seems, that the most participants in this thread are convinced, that the installer (and that's what I like to talk about) has the best functionality, which is possible.

In my humble opinion an installer should protect the superuser from warning after the installation.
I think the usability of an installation process around language issues is ideal, when during the installation process the user has to decide about that.

Example:

We recognize, that your computer is located in Germany.

1 Do you like to use the language  [German] (menu to choose another) for the GUI of the backend? [OK]

2 Do you like to use the language settings of PHP for [German] (menu to choose another)? [OK] *

3 Do you like to use the language  [German] (menu to choose another) in your first website? [OK]

That's all I suggest.

That behaviour is good practice in many software I installed in the past.

I hope you regard my arguments not at all as an "ungratefulness" from a newbie. The contrary is true. Because I appreciate the project a lot, I think is worth to be honest and give a constructive criticism.

 

*Of course the questions 2 and 3 could be written in that language which has been choosed in question 1. But of course only than, when the project has enough resources for translation work.

 

[dotnetic]

On 2.3.2018 at 7:12 AM, fermion said:

<https://github.com/processwire/processwire-issues/issues/184> Wenn eine Anwendung einen Locale haben will, soll sie ihn halt setzen, dafür gibt es ja die Funktion setlocale(). Ich habe noch nie erlebt, dass bei einer nicht gesetzten globalen Locale-Einstellung (was übrigens dem Standard bei PHP entspricht, siehe auch <http://php.net/manual/de/intl.configuration.php>) eine Fehlermeldung kommt. Weder DokuWiki, WordPress, NextCloud oder PHPMyAdmin haben deswegen jemals ein Problem gehabt.

@fermion As a reaction to your hosters answer: The setlocale() function only has an effect if the locale you are trying to set is installed on the server, and locales do not have the same name on every system. Some linux distros or windows use different names. If for example the "de_DE" locale isn't installed and you call `setlocale(LC_ALL,'de_DE');` then the default locale would be used instead. That's why there are different namings for a language in my code. On linux you can find out which locales are installed with `locale -a.

[dotnetic]

I don't share the opinion that the installer ist the best thing possible. There could be more improvements, for example the locale setting that you mentioned. Or displaying the installer in another language. But as ProcessWire is Open Source everyone can submit ideas or fixes.

If you don't speak English so well, use an online translator such as https://www.deepl.com/translator, which is the best one I know and submit your ideas to this forum or on https://github.com/processwire/processwire-requests