Wordpress vs Processwire side by side (briefly)

[SamC]

Be warned, this is a bit of a ramble but interested to hear other points of view. It's not a 'I hate wordpress' post at all, we all know each project needs tools, and they are chosen depending on the project.

https://www.cmscritic.com/processwire-vs-wordpress/

So, I've as looking at this old post yesterday and see a few of the regulars here getting involved I installed wordpress yesterday and have spent the best part of this morning getting to grips with some basic stuff.

Anyway, I'm thumbing through the twentyseventeen theme and I can't help but be extremely confused by the whole thing. My mind is blown how overly complex it seems to display what is a big header image, with some posts under it and a sidebar. There's a 567 line functions file that does something or other. Is it a case of the theme has to support a zillion different things a user "might" do, when the processwire approach is to theme the site with exactly the requirements of a given project? Of course I don't have a lot of experience with custom themes in wordpress but I'm thinking it would take a good year or so (at least for me) to get proficient at this. Why am I doing this? Purely because (a) it's so popular and I can't avoid the possible work opportunities and (b) I have doubts that convincing people to use processwire is going to work. Mainly because I can't answer the question "who will take care of my site when you're gone". This is a legit question for a business owner and I feel this is also a big problem for a system that has a far lower userbase and (c) I'm love trying out different CMSs.

i compared the UI side by side:

What I liked about the above is that this is showing all 'Pages', and is listed as such.

The above however also list 'Pages', because everything in processwire is a page. I think that 'Add new' should immediately popup on hover though like the way wordpress does. I can't much any point going to '/page/add/'. I also think 'Tree' should be removed entirely (when AOS module is used with 'Always show sidebar items'). The 'Page' link at the top goes to the same page and what does 'Tree' mean to a user?

Off topic, but I find the Reno module awkward to use compared to the default admin theme. The accordian in the left menu requires a lot more clicking than the default theme hover/dropdown combo. However, Reno becomes a lot more useful with AOS and looks great.

 

The actual editing process interested me as I remember wordpress being really easy to do this:

This time though after using PW for a year is that there is too much distraction here. My eye wanders over to the right. The worst bit here is having to select a parent page every time you create a child page, that would pain me somewhat. I want to be able to select a parent and directly create a child (like Drupal or PW). I almost missed the 'Featured image' bit down there to the right (although it can be dragged up).

Now this is nice. Very clear, a user will just move down the page, editing as they go. No need to worry about 'Parent' or 'Order' options (in WP).

 

Another thing I notice as there doesn't seem to be any relationship to wordpress pages and posts. You can change the URL to posts to display on 'site.com/posts/my-post' but there is no 'posts' parent page. I find this quite confusing.

Global categories can be set ( with a bunch of code https://stackoverflow.com/questions/16802751/multiple-custom-post-types-one-set-of-categories ) so your custom post types can use a single list of categories across the whole site. however, the categories are stored under 'Posts' in the admin bar to the left. So, in effect, they're global but don't LOOK global. Another +1 for my confusion.

Custom fields (acf: repeater and repeater matrix, aka 'Flexible content field'... are only in pro version), custom post types (cpt), security (wordfence), user management (roles/permissions). I need plugins for all of those. There are plugins that do really simple stuff that cold be done in a few lines in PW. Although widgets look cool with the drag and drop, I'm not sure I'd actually want a client adding extra stuff all over the place on their site in sidebars etc.

Setting image sizes, controlling image uploads are things I would expect in a CMS, not requiring extra functions to achieve.

 

I mentioned earlier and this one is a killer for me, I hate this. I found a system that I'm productive with, it totally clicks with my brain, I can use any frameworks, any themes, make one from scratch, whatever, yet:

(b) I have doubts that convincing people to use processwire is going to work. Mainly because I can't answer the question "who will take care of my site when you're gone". This is a legit question for a business owner and I feel this is also a big problem for a system that has a far lower userbase.

So how do other people on the forum approach the above point?

Currently looking at:

 

 

[Macrura]

have you tried lister pro?

[SamC]

10 minutes ago, Macrura said:

have you tried lister pro?

Nope. Will it help me convince new clients?

[tpr]

Just for the record, in AOS you can easily add a WP-like page edit layout by adding enabling Add aos_column_break field to create admin columns tweak under Misc (and adding the aos_column_break field to your templates). The gutter between the columns is draggable.

[pwired]

I wasn't sure about replying because you are giving wordpress a lot of attention here.
But reading your a) and b) I have my 5 cts worth it:

Quote

Why am I doing this? Purely because (a) it's so popular and I can't avoid the possible work opportunities.

That's what I thought also years ago until I learned otherwise. Bumping into a client who wants it done in wordpress: trying to convince a client doesn't work. I spent no longer than 5 minutes opening the door to processwire, then I leave my card and move on. There are unlimited small offices and businesses out there who still don't have a website.

Quote

(b) I have doubts that convincing people to use processwire is going to work. Mainly because I can't answer the question "who will take care of my site when you're gone". This is a legit question for a business owner and I feel this is also a big problem for a system that has a far lower userbase.

Not true. Have a look at the api of processwire. Any experienced coder will pick up the api of processwire in no time. Processwire is decoupled so nothing to learn on the front. Just pick any framework or code your own css. And that is exactly what I tell my clients:
If I am not around anymore all you have to do is to find an experienced coder and your website will go on. Heck, I bet an experienced coder will pick up the api of processwire faster than wordpress.

 

 

[SamC]

1 hour ago, tpr said:

Just for the record, in AOS you can easily add a WP-like page edit layout by adding enabling Add aos_column_break field to create admin columns tweak under Misc (and adding the aos_column_break field to your templates). The gutter between the columns is draggable.

Nice! I don't think I'd use this though as I wasn't keen on the distraction of the wordpress sidebar. However, I think some clients might like this.

1 hour ago, pwired said:

That's what I thought also years ago until I learned otherwise. Bumping into a client who wants it done in wordpress: trying to convince a client doesn't work. I spent no longer than 5 minutes opening the door to processwire, then I leave my card and move on. There are unlimited small offices and businesses out there who still don't have a website.

That's interesting. I'm not so sure about the unlimited businesses without a website but you're more experienced than me so I def appreciate the input.

1 hour ago, pwired said:

Not true. Have a look at the api of processwire. Any experienced coder will pick up the api of processwire in no time.

You know that, I know that, the client may be a bit more skeptical. I actually think it rather generous of me to actually care how their project does 5 years down the line. I've had plumbers that come in, bodge it up and don't give a rats a** what happens in the future. But I digress 

After spending all day with wordpress, I think I've decided that my best bet is to shelve that idea for now and focus on:

a) why I like processwire
b) why a customer would like processwire
c) security/ease of theming/speed/migration ease (without renaming absolute URLs with SQL *shudder*)
d) the API and ease of use for future functionality
e) the high level of base functionality without the need for any plugins at all

i.e. not comparing to other CMSs at all, simply being able to point out the key points on why this system would be suitable (and more). It does seem like trying to sell ice to an eskimo though. I'll learn.

[Macrura]

8 hours ago, SamC said:

Nope. Will it help me convince new clients?

possibly, read on...

9 hours ago, SamC said:

i compared the UI side by side:

If you are comparing 'the' UI side by side, the problem is that there is no 'the' ui, because the page tree is the default UI, however when i build a site, my clients log into an admin that shows a dashboard (like wordpress), with lots of shortcuts to common areas, as well as content creation (like 'New Blog Post').

Some of these clients have never seen the page tree.

ListerPro is a little bit like the wordpress listing of pages (albeit without hierarchical indents), but 'on steroids' – instantly filter to any page by title, use the filters or lister actions, edit inline, and ... bob's your uncle.

 

[Jonathan Lahijani]

If a client is dead-set on WordPress, it's worth communicating to them that every developer has their own go-to approach with the system, to the point where I would say it's not even "WordPress" anymore.  So even if another developer were to take over it, it's still foreign territory to an extent, followed up with continuously saying "why the hell did the previous developer do things in X way instead of Y?" and a lack of productivity.  Just check out all the starter themes, mega themes (ugh... ... ... ugh), and different approaches to custom fields.  It's pretty terrible.

For me, ProcessWire + UIkit solves like 95% of my challenges, and solves them WELL. 

[SamC]

8 hours ago, Macrura said:

however when i build a site, my clients log into an admin that shows a dashboard (like wordpress), with lots of shortcuts to common areas, as well as content creation (like 'New Blog Post').

Now we're talking! This is what I'm after. Have you got any screenshots of the admin your clients might see or a video of it in action? I'll probably set up a test site on a subdomain so they can get a live demo to dispel any issues they might have with "is it as easy as wordpress...?".

7 hours ago, Jonathan Lahijani said:

If a client is dead-set on WordPress, it's worth communicating to them that every developer has their own go-to approach with the system, to the point where I would say it's not even "WordPress" anymore.  So even if another developer were to take over it, it's still foreign territory to an extent, followed up with continuously saying "why the hell did the previous developer do things in X way instead of Y?" and a lack of productivity.  Just check out all the starter themes, mega themes (ugh... ... ... ugh), and different approaches to custom fields.  It's pretty terrible.

This is a very good point. Just because someone 'knows' wordpress, their methods will undoubtedly be different. I tried to trace a function through the default theme and ended up on a few different templates (with identical php other than a few lines), a functions file, a template functions file and multiple pages of the codex. Twas not fun.

[DaveP]

One fun way of demonstrating a real difference between PW and WP is to run the average WP site (preferably one chosen by the (prospective) client) and an equivalent PW site (probably from the showcase) through a tool like YSlow.

WP sites often have all these plugins, often including multiple different versions of jQuery etc etc. I just tried it on a WP site I know of and got this

Yep, 28 external javascript files and 23 external stylesheets. That's, what, 40-odd unnecessary requests?

Doing the same thing on a similar looking site from the showcase wasn't perfect - 6 js and 3 CSS (AIOM, anyone?), but it's actually a really obvious way of explaining even to a layperson that one way is very obviously better than the other - file conflicts, bandwidth, load time etc.

[tpr]

Good point. I usually get about 85/92 on google pagespeed by default with PW, with no extra efforts. With WP I'm happy if I can get above 80 with a caching plugin and various tricks.

[bernhard]

don't forget to sell yourself (and not the system that you are using) 

find out what your client is looking for and then tell them what you can offer. if they are looking for a quick & cheap wordpress website (they can have good reasons for that), maybe you are not the right person for the job... (and maybe its also better for you to create one great PW site with a great client than 2 cheap websites with 2 not-so-great clients)

 

think of the following 2 approaches and how the client may feel or what the client may hear:

Quote

you should not use wordpress! wordpress is a bad choice because of reason one, two, three...

or this one:

Quote

if you are looking for a quick&dirty solution (like a cheap wordpress website that everyone else has for example) i can recommend a friend of mine. i don't work with wordpress any more for several reasons.

how would you feel? what would you think? maybe in situation one you would feel bad and confused because there is somebody telling you that something that most of the others are using is a bad choice?

in situation two you can see instantly how the client reacts: does he want that quick&dirty way? does he want to be like everybody else? same situation but maybe totally different feelings for your client   if he asks you for your reasons you know that he is interested (or at least curious). he knows that you are not the quick&dirty guy and he should not feel offended or over-instructed (telling him if he decides like 80% of all others he will regret - actually, when i read that, that sounds really strange and i totally understand my clients  ).

 

thanks for all the other input. i'll try to remember some points for future talks. especially yours @Jonathan Lahijani

@DaveP thanks for that example. totally valid points too. especially for us as developers. but think of that in context of my first quote. that may create the total opposite message in your clients head: ah, this guy is a nerd. he speaks a language i don't understand and talks about things most other website owners obviously don't care about...

[SamC]

This thread has totally exceeded my expectations with some great advice in here. It's really helpful to hear from people who have experience in selling themselves effectively. On a plus note, regarding the original post, I've had a much better day today playing with wireIncludeFile() within loops and watching with glee as PW works its awesome magic. Quite the opposite to my experience yesterday.

[Peter Knight]

On 25/09/2017 at 4:52 PM, SamC said:

After spending all day with wordpress, I think I've decided that my best bet is to shelve that idea for now and focus on:

a) why I like processwire
b) why a customer would like processwire
c) security/ease of theming/speed/migration ease (without renaming absolute URLs with SQL *shudder*)
d) the API and ease of use for future functionality
e) the high level of base functionality without the need for any plugins at all

I think this is a really positive thing to do. Focus on what you enjoy working on and where you want to take someones site and maybe they'll see that sincerity and take notice.

 

[bernhard]

15 hours ago, SamC said:

I've had a much better day today playing with wireIncludeFile() within loops

offtopic, but see also

field rendering https://processwire.com/blog/posts/processwire-3.0.7-expands-field-rendering-page-path-history-and-more/#field-rendering-with-template-files
wireRenderFile() https://processwire.com/blog/posts/processwire-2.5.2/#new-wirerenderfile-and-wireincludefile-functions
and markup regions https://processwire.com/blog/posts/processwire-3.0.62-and-more-on-markup-regions/

[flydev]

On 26/09/2017 at 9:31 AM, SamC said:

Now we're talking! This is what I'm after. Have you got any screenshots of the admin your clients might see or a video of it in action?

@Macrura please do it ! We are lazy and curious at the same time

It is something based on ? :

 

[Macrura]

The dashboard module definitely works well and saves a lot of headaches for me as far as interacting with clients. For some reason most of my clients have an incredibly hard time using computers. I have to make everything as simple as possible; The dashboard was the only way to accomplish this, e.g. allow users to interact with a complex website, with a lot of data, moving parts, etc, and make it where they can log in and within 1 click either be editing a new content item, viewing a list of content items, recent formbuilder entries etc.

The module is dependent on several types of fields, like FieldtypeColor (for the color of the widget header bar), FontIconPicker, for the icon to use for shortcuts, and Selector field for setting up the custom mini-listers. The module requires about 13 fields and 2 templates, as well as 3 page tree branches to hold the widget types, shortcuts, and widgets themselves; it hasn't been easy to port the dashboard from site to site, but i have gradually been able to automate some of the process of creating fields and templates (using some methods in the module that read the json export of fields and templates), or have used the built in export/import of fields and templates, as well as the new pages import/export.  This screenshot is a simple example from a testing instance of PW.

[tpr]

2 minutes ago, Macrura said:

automate some of the process of creating fields and templates

You could do this easily within the module. Btw nice button on the right of the screenshot (but icon should be fa-medkit)  

[Macrura]

medkit - ok thanks, wasn't sure which one!

Yes, the module does do some of the field and template installation, however so many things have to be assumed, because around 5 of the fields are page reference, so there needs to be populated items in the tree to even setup those fields correctly; i know it can be done, but would take some interaction or module config settings; right now the module config does need you to specify the root of the widgets themselves; but the other fields, like the shortcut select needs a branch holding all of the shortcut definitions; also each widget has view access settings for user, role and permissions, and for some reason those fields are not being fully setup correctly through the api;  i will try and get the current version up on github soon and see if anyone else can work on it;  i was also considering how to not use any PW fields or templates and make the whole thing be configurable from the module settings.