Thoughts After 2 Years Of Marriage

[valan]

I've married PW about 2 years ago and I feel happy today. However, this fact also gives me some rights to share thoughts how to direct PW development with the objective to speedup popularity and better fuel its development. List below - something that is on top of my mind. Sorry if I'd repeat already discussed topics. The purpose is to summarize really top "big" things in one place and give core team source for thoughts.

1. Any more or less popular/really important site needs a development "copy" and usually test "copy", were developers/testers can do whatever they want, passing changes through dev->test->production approval chain. These features should attract more web-developer teams and those who do something bigger than personal blog-site. ) Ideally this should be integrated with git/bit-buckets to make version management easy.

2. Any more or less "commercial" site needs well-developed "payment plugin". Existing PW plugin(s) are far from desired state. I'd suggest to make it and place it in core. This should attract more "commercial" web-developers into PW and those who consider PW as next CMS but don't have good PHP background. BTW, I'd suggest to consider https://github.com/omnipay/omnipay as a basis for such "to-be" PW plugin.

3. Most popular front-end framework is bootstrap. Why not to "bootstrap3" PW admin? It will close the gap btw frontend UI and admin UI (forms, inputs, etc) for majority of web-developers. E.g. no need to design own forms/inputs and to some extent server logic, etc. There is great Ryan's Formbuilder module, but I talk here about design & custom forms for non-generic use cases. Also, number and design of input fields should be reviewed to close at list 80% of web-developer needs. I'd also welcome "save-as-type" mode of entry vs current "type-find save button-waitrefresh".

4. PW community has grown and forum has become a hard place to find answers quickly, especially for new PW-engaged people. Actually what any web-developer needs is manual (like PHP manual) and stackoverflow q&a system. May be it is time to open PW stackoverflow, while maintaining manual?

Additions/corrections/critics - welcome!

[apeisa]

1. Closer than you believe: https://processwire.com/talk/topic/2117-continuous-integration-of-field-and-template-changes/?p=68899

2. I have something coming for these, although probably on much simpler scale than Omnipay.

3. I don't understand what you are saying here. First you are talking about bootstrap at admin, but then go into FormBuilder (which is for front end). PW has great form class (Inputfields), that you are free to use on front- and backend. Can you explain a bit so I can follow?

4. New Tutorials section is pretty much for it: http://processwire.com/docs/tutorials/ also extended cheatsheet is coming (it's like php manual).

[valan]

Re 1: Wow. Super. Checked it - work is actually in the very beginning but it has right direction. Joined the topic to follow/participate.

Re 2: That would be fantastic!

Re 3: Yes, there is mix. I mean that bootstrap3 should be an option in default site profile and admin should be designed in it (= bootstrap3.css + bootstrap3.js as basis with minimal custom.css and broader-set-of-inputfields.js). After that Inputfields can be used "as is", without need to adjust css or add/replace js in front-end. As for mode of entry, I mean this -> http://vitalets.github.io/x-editable/

Re 4: Tutorials are important in the beginning of journey, especially for newcomers. But a bit later most help queries stop in http://stackoverflow.com/ )) And there is good reason for that: quickly get best answer.

[valan]

One more point, 5: Sooner or later every web-developer meets challenge of "complex" site where MVC framework becomes a necessity. It is great that PW does not impose requirements on "what&how" and web-developers are free to choose own MVC implementation scenarios. However, it is not easy to choose "the right one" way, especially for those who meet this challenge first time. When I've met this challenge I've missed "optional PW MVC" (in core/in PW API) and had to spend time, inventing own one. It is good for own skills but not for project timing. ) And as any custom/non-standard thing it has its drawbacks. E.g. why not to add standard but "optional" PW MVC (in core) that will be quicker to implement and easier to support for all those who are advanced enough to switch to MVC.

[pwired]

One more point, 5: Sooner or later every web-developer meets challenge of "complex" site where MVC framework becomes a necessity.

Processwire and mvc

https://processwire.com/talk/topic/4892-an-almost-mvc-approach-to-using-templates/

https://github.com/fixate/pw-mvc-boilerplate/blob/master/README.md

However, it is not easy to choose "the right one" way, especially for those who meet this challenge first time.

In that case you really should not do a project like that alone.

E.g. why not to add standard but "optional" PW MVC (in core) that will be quicker to implement and easier to support

for all those who are advanced enough to switch to MVC.

http://www.getsymphony.com/discuss/thread/79645/

[teppo]

@valan: I very much enjoyed reading your comments and many of them are familiar, in one form or another. Thank you for your input!

One thing I do not fully agree, though, is the notion of "adding stuff to core". I get that the core has to evolve, but that doesn't necessarily mean it has to grow -- and in this single post, you're (in a way) suggesting three new additions: payment tools, some sort of MVC setup and Bootstrap (well, this is not so much an addition as it would be replacement for jQuery UI used right now).

My opinion is that the core package has to remain as small and lean as possible. Any single addition to it has to be something that very high percentage of PW sites require -- and even then, if it can be sensibly built as a separate module/feature, in many cases I'd go with that.

One of ProcessWire's key strengths is that it's modular and very flexible. We don't need features like payment modules, Form Builder, MVC template structure, site profiles (themeable or not), just to name a few, in the core, as those can all be built separately and plugged in when needed. This reduces the bloat that some other systems suffer from.

Just my five cents.

[Ivan Gretsky]

I would agree with #4. It would be really usefull to have all the valuable forum answeres structured somehow and easy to search. Tutorials are great but they tend to cover basic questions and are not structured in any order. Wiki could be the place, but it does not seem to evolve. Cheatsheet is api reference, a more low-level stuff. We should produce a nice learning curve for the newcomers, so after the 30 minutes with PW they still would learn only a bit, but not turn away. Rather the should find a shining perspective in front of them .

I thought about managing some sort of a forum guide (actually started it for myself following valuable topics) which could be a forum topic of it's own, a wiki page or a page in the DOCs section. Those, who are only on the stage of combining plugins will never switch to PW. But those, who understand the need for a customizible solution could have used some kind of a manual or guide.

[onjegolders]

Valan, I think PW's great independent success owes a lot to it not being like other CMS. It is a strong tool for building websites. It is not trying to be a new Wordpress, there is little to be gained (as far as I see it) from trying to bridge the gap between the two. Rather to keep working on what makes it special and flexible ( a great example of this are the new pro tools) Give us more power but not more bloat

[pwired]

This subject is already been discussed so many times before and still has repeat = on.

Don´t try to bring pw to the level where you want to use it.

Instead bring your self to the level of pw and do what you want.

Processwire is designed that way and maybe Ryan should put

that somewhere clear during a pw install to set repeat = off.

[horst]

(my like is for this)

... Don´t try to bring pw to the level where you want to use it. ...

[valan]

@teppo: thanks for sharing thoughts! fully agree that core should be as small and lean as possible and module system is the answer for all kind of additions. My point is that MVC, payment system and bootstrap3 deserve to be among core modules (first two can be plugged in when required, last one better to have as default choice instead of Jquery UI).

[valan]

This subject is already been discussed so many times before and still has repeat = on.

Don´t try to bring pw to the level where you want to use it.

Instead bring your self to the level of pw and do what you want.

Processwire is designed that way and maybe Ryan should put

that somewhere clear during a pw install to set repeat = off.

Yes, there are a lot of separate discussions, but I haven't seen any discussion "next top big 3 things that we, as PW community want to have first". Otherwise please share a link. Thanks.

P.S. My like to comment "don't try..." 

[Nico Knoll]

There is a roadmap which is open for additions.