Wordpress dominates 19% of the web

[einsteinsboi]

I think they're able to whip out numbers because WP sites leave nice big footprints across the web - Wordpress sites can be pretty easy to detect (which is one reason why they're targeted so often by hackers), so it's easy to count how many there are out there and whip out a percentage

I'm a strong advocate for using the right tool for the job.  As I learn more about PW I'm finding i can do a lot with it, but there are some use cases where I'll still reach for other platforms because I am more familiar with them for those use cases. That might change with time, but at the moment I'm have several tools in my CMS toolbox

[teppo]

@Zahari: you're not alone with these problems -- just take a look at this thread if you haven't already. I have to agree that PW can be a bit intimidating, especially if you're coming from a system with very different concepts in play

For me two main reasons PW made sense right away were that it was all PHP and the API really feels a lot like jQuery, my go-to JS library for doing.. well, anything. At the moment I'm learning AngularJS, which is totally different from jQuery and I'm having similar issues: even as it sometimes feels really awesome ("what the.. I just changed this model here and that UI element there updated by itself.. way cool!") other times it just frustrates the heck out of me, especially when trying to stick with the "AngularJS way" ("where's that bloody .on() when I need it?")

I used WP for a long time for building blogs and very simple websites. For that it was awesome, but had I ever been asked to do something more complex with it I'd have been really worried. What I like about PW is that it is much more like a framework that can be used to do anything than out-of-the-box super-polished CMS that does X very well. If you just want to do one specific thing, such as build a blog, consider starting with a specific site profile instead.

One thing that always makes me flinch when I hear people talking about WP is it's notorious reputation when it comes to security. Being popular and having WP's feature set (registration, commenting etc.) doesn't really help, but excuses like that only go so far. I've seen whole servers compromised simply because someone forgot to upgrade an old WP installation or to follow those mile-long guides on how to make your default installation secure.

Security should be built-in, not something optional or -- even worse -- something that users are tasked to implement themselves. That's just bad design no matter how you look at it.

Edit: @Zahari, you mentioned seeing some "missing blocks" you'd find useful in the docs. Care to elaborate that a bit further -- what are these missing things? Is it something we could possibly add there?

[diogo]

I have to agree that PW can be a bit intimidating, especially if you're coming from a system with very different concepts in play

The beauty of it is when you realize that you can do absolutely anything with PW if you keep only these two concepts in mind:

1. everything is a page
2. the cheatsheet is your friend

not a lot to learn, hein?

[MatthewSchenker]

Greetings,

I will agree that WordPress comes up a lot with clients.

Probably every week I talk with a potential client with a WordPress site he or she wants to re-do. Because WordPress is so ubiquitous, many clients don't seem aware of other options. Of course, these days, I make my best pitch for remaking the site in ProcessWire. And the pitch works often enough! For those who refuse to budge from WordPress, I increasingly suggest they go to someone else.

The only other major tool in my design/develop arsenal these days is a PHP framework (shift between Laravel and CodeIgniter), but ProcessWire is rapidly replacing that as well!

My experience and interpretation of the situation:

1. If you're an independent developer, how popular WordPress is shouldn't matter too much. There is enough work outside WordPress.

2. It's up to each of us -- and the ProcessWire community -- to develop statements we can use to show clients the advantages of ProcessWire over WordPress (for example, explaining that ProcessWire is a CMS but built to be as flexible as PHP itself, and PHP is the language that WordPress is built with).

3. Clients often don't actually "choose" WordPress the way a designer/developer chooses a CMS. It's just that WordPress was the first and biggest thing they saw when they typed "blogging software" into Google.

4. There are a good number of clients out there who started using WordPress because they just wanted a blog, and now that they want more than that they are aware -- even as non-techies -- that WordPress is still meant mostly for blogging.

5. You can have a good life as a designer/developer without WordPress. Even if the stats trickle down, 81% of the time the situation does NOT include WordPress!

Thanks,

Matthew

[Pete]

...81% of the time the situation does NOT include WordPress!

Very good point - I hadn't thought of it that way. Though a lot of that remaining percentage will be different languages - ASP etc, or even just plain HTML, but yes it does prove that it's not the "main" tool.

I still would like to say "19% of what?" though. Is there an explanation somewhere as to how that figure was reached? As far as I know there is no definitive list of all the websites there are on the web, so as mentioned earlier it has most likely been taken from a measureable set of data somewhere so it would be interesting to see what that dataset is.

[MatthewSchenker]

Very good point - I hadn't thought of it that way. Though a lot of that remaining percentage will be different languages - ASP etc, or even just plain HTML, but yes it does prove that it's not the "main" tool

If the client is coming from "plain HTML" the pitch to get them into ProcessWire is easy. However, in my experience, ASP creates absolute addiction (but not necessarily because it's so great).

As a side note: in case you don't use it already, Wappalyzer is a nice plugin for Firefox or Chrome that reveals the system a site is built with.

Thanks,

Matthew

[arjen]

I have yet to discover one client who didn't prefer ProcessWire over WordPress after a 5 minute demo. Another quick fix would be to let a prospect talk to one of your previous clients. Let them tell the prospect how they work and how little time they have to spend to actually edit their website instead of wandering around a (looking beautiful, but UX wise dramatic) backend. ProcessWire is point and click and it does what a client expects.

[allanb]

Only been here a few days.

Tried WP Jummla and Drupal got nowhere.

Then Ruby on Rails was getting somewhere but not available the host I could afford.

Then found Modx I developed a few sites with it found it suited my way of working and was happy.

I wanted to update one of those sites and found I could not install latest Modx Revolution.

I then started looking elsware.

I spent a week learning and checking out Angulas.js as the site I wanted to build would I felt only be used by people under 40 so needed to be suitable for mobile.

I was very impressed with the Angular Documentation if I had been a geek but as an older man (over 60) found it very hard going as there did not seem a clear way to structure your app.

I then came across PW with @kongondo post helping former modx users to adapt to PW.

I tried it and I am busy setting up my modified site.

One thing I did like about the Anjular Docs was the use of graphics to explain the concepts.

In my opinion PW could do with something similar to explain where the various template files fit in as that was my first stumbling block.

Great to be here. I feel quite at home already with the help I have received.

Allan

[Zahari M.]

@Zahari: you're not alone with these problems -- just take a look at this thread if you haven't already. I have to agree that PW can be a bit intimidating, especially if you're coming from a system with very different concepts in play

Edit: @Zahari, you mentioned seeing some "missing blocks" you'd find useful in the docs. Care to elaborate that a bit further -- what are these missing things? Is it something we could possibly add there?

Hi teppo!

I can't speak for others, but for me, here is what I would say were the "pain points" that I encountered...

Major issue is dealing with the "Tree - Pages - No Categories" model for the first time && ( $victim == "comes from wp" || $victim == "comes from d*" )

This took me quite a while to come to grips with. After say a month now, I have come to terms with it all and it is no longer the hurdle that it once was.

But when first encountering it, the absence of categories makes it seem so damn inflexible and your thinking how and where the hell do I put my content!!!

Only after reading lots of threads on how to categorize content, and reading lots of threads how to "list child pages" does the tree model all begin to make sense. So, what's missing, in my opinion is an "orientation guide" that helps you with some examples of how to lay your content out using a solid parents and children structure, ALONG with a good explanation of how to display our content and any related content alongside it.

The problem here is that as there are no "categories" to begin with, ( yes, I now know you can "create" this functionality), your there wondering, if I have 100 articles, how are people going to find them? There are no categories and it would be ridiculous to have 100 artlces linked in the menu. So then you start looking at the code that is thrown in with the templates that generate a list of child pages out of neccesity.

But here again lies another problem. ProcessWire too readily assumes you have a very good understanding of arrays and for foreach loops. It's just thrown at you in the starter template and for those who dont have a good understanding of arrays, you're left struggling here.

To me, there is a missing guide that says, hey, there's this thing called the page array and here's whats inside it and here are a few code examples to help you access it and that using these code examples will help you list out some common requirements. For example... If your on a parent page and what to list every child of this parent, use this block of code. Now, if there are too many results, here's how you limit them by modifying that block of code here. If you want to paginate, heres how you further modify the code.

Once sufficent simple examples have been built up upon, then, I believe, all the existing documentation will make MUCH more sense to beginners / newbies like me, because we have seen a set of code snippets that have "evolved" inside these examples and as such we can now readily recognize certain patterns. Once we are familiar with these patterns, then it's just going into the docs and grabbing just the bit you need cos by then, you KNOW exactly where you are going to slot it in

But teppi, these are not complaints on my part. I for one hate these basthirds on YouTube who so readily criticise videos and content when they have no idea of the effort that has gone into it, nor have they produced anything themselves!

My response to all this is that I want to make a couple of videos to contribute to the community here to help build a better bridge for some of those newbies who are journeying in towards ProcessWire land and are facing the same difficulties that I am.

So, the first video I want to make is about explaining a bit about the ProcessWire templating system.....

The second video I want to make is about how to generate a list of child pages....

Coming soon!

Cheers teppo!

[diogo]

I know people learn in different ways, but in my opinion, the existing documentation (it's on the site, you can't miss it) goes through all the important concepts that are needed to begin with PW. As a bonus, it even teaches you some PHP basics. After (and only after) reading the documentation, the default install is also a great place to learn.

I agree that a snippets library would be very useful, but certainly not for learning. I completely disagree that we should have a place where beginners start learning how to do small tasks without completely grasping the basic concepts of $page and $pages. That's how all the bad habits begin. That's how Javascript once almost ruined the web

[kongondo]

@Zahari,

Disclaimer: This below is not meant to be a criticism...just thoughts from my experience. I came in to PW from MODX and before that Drupal/Joomla and WP, etc. I feel what you are saying.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I agree some stuff in the docs could be improved maybe with more examples. As you acknowledge, it is a community effort and any help is appreciated. On the other hand, it would be impossible to write docs for every use case. For instance, on the issue of a lack of a "categories" system you talk about, categories are predicated to systems that use them such as WP.  A Drupal person will talk of where are the nodes? What about taxonomy? A MODX guy will ask for TVs and chunks. A.....you get the point . So how do we deal with this? I like what Ryan wrote in another post about focusing on the bigger picture, not the how can I do this or that. So, instead of focusing on how can I make a photo album or how can I create a menu in PW? you focus on the bigger picture, e.g. what are the basic building blocks in PW? You will notice the docs try to focus on the bigger picture. They tell you how to use the tools, those basic building blocks ($page, $pages, selectors, templates, template files and fields mainly). If you know how to use those tools you can build anything in PW. For PW, in order to effectively use its tools, you have to know some basic PHP. In other words, before you use my tools, please read the basic manual for the tools. This is nothing more than if, include, foreach, and echo. With foreach comes arrays of course. Those will suffice in most cases. However, for those willing to learn more PHP, it unlocks yet other doors and will enable you to do more with the tools. All of a sudden you can do more than echo stuff; using the API, you can delete, add, do maths, and before you know it, you have developed a small module. In essence, PW is not a turn-key solution nor does it pretend to be.

On the question of more examples, I am thinking this should be a community effort (like examples on php.net). In fact, there are many examples in the forum (community contributed). Admittedly, currently it is only a handful of members who are contributing such examples. With time this will increase, I know. Hey, look at me, I only arrived recently yet I now feel comfortable enough to "contribute". I am no genius; I just learnt what I know from reading other members' contributions and the API docs  . My only concern is that some of those examples will be "lost" deep in the annals of this forum. There's been community talk of collating code snippets in one place but I haven't seen that happen yet.

But here again lies another problem. ProcessWire too readily assumes you have a very good understanding of arrays and for foreach loops. It's just thrown at you in the starter template and for those who dont have a good understanding of arrays, you're left struggling here.

I don't see that as a problem at all. Yes, PW assumes you have a basic knowledge of these like I said in order to effectively use its tools. In order to use this system, you need to have that knowledge. Similarly, in order to use Joomla, the system assumes you can use a mouse and a keyboard to click point and enter data . PW does not seek to replicate what those systems do. Maybe this should be made clearer in the docs if they are not clear enough. 

My response to all this is that I want to make a couple of videos to contribute to the community here to help build a better bridge for some of those newbies who are journeying in towards ProcessWire land and are facing the same difficulties that I am.

 

So, the first video I want to make is about explaining a bit about the ProcessWire templating system.....

 

The second video I want to make is about how to generate a list of child pages....

Looking forward to those videos!  

<btw>Come to think of it, I have seen a couple of "once this is finished I will write a tutorial to help others..." but in many cases I am still waiting for those tutorials . I am not saying the posters are not sincere; stuff just gets in the way I suppose !</btw>

OK, back to WP and why I don't use it...

Edited July 31, 2013 by kongondo

[pwired]

<btw>Come to think of it, I have seen a couple of "once this- - - - - - -</btw>

Lol at <btw> a new coding language has been born called "creative code"

<read>

Great post kongondo. I see here exactly the same situation as in the days with modx evo. There are those who ask for documentation improvement (complain) that it is lacking this and that and there are those who have no problems with the existing documentation. Designers and Coders. Without coding skills the documentation will always lack something and you will always have questions not answered in the documentation. The only way is to start learning to code and practice a lot. After that more and more questions will fall away. Mmmm coming to think of it maybe there is not only room for a FAQ for newbies but also group together the existing tutos and api / php coding examples in one place in the forum. Are you guys with me ?</read>

                    

May the code be strong in your projects.

[teppo]

There are those who ask for documentation improvement (complain) that it is lacking this and that and there are those who have no problems with the existing documentation.

Personally I don't have an issue with current documentation, but I very rarely use it either -- cheatsheet is awesome and if something seems confusing I prefer to check it from source. This is why I'm wrong person to talk about the state of current documentation, but still:

I don't think anyone here really has an issue with improving documentation *as long as it doesn't undermine it's current state of simplicity*, which seems to work very well for some folks out there. One issue is that in order to write better documentation people writing it need feedback, tips on what to improve and (optimally) even pointers to how that should happen. I'm seeing some concrete tips in what @Zahari wrote up there. Posts like that provide valuable information.

One problem I'm seeing quite often these days are so-called "newbie questions" that have already been answered (usually multiple times) here on the forum.. or are *very clearly* answered within the docs.

I'm not trying to discourage those who want to ask, I'm just worried since this obviously isn't optimal situation for anyone: the forum itself is great source of information, but people don't seem to find that information well enough. Have you seen @kongondos replies and how there are often bunch of links to similar threads in the end..?

One problem might be that people don't do Google searches ("site:processwire.com categories" etc.) often enough. <voice type="semi-sarcastic">Perhaps what we really need is a how-to guide for finding stuff here.. and it needs to start with either "don't panic" or "forget forum search, Google it!"  </voice>

Mmmm coming to think of it maybe there is not only room for a FAQ for newbies but also group together the existing tutos and api / php coding examples in one place in the forum. Are you guys with me ?

Sounds good and that's exactly what the wiki is for. It had an awesome start but now it's a bit quiet. If you'd fancy working for it, I'd suggest contacting Ryan (I think it needs registration, which doesn't seem to be open.)

[kongondo]

Mmmm coming to think of it maybe there is not only room for a FAQ for newbies but also group together the existing tutos and api / php coding examples in one place in the forum. Are you guys with me ?

I have previously raised the issue of FAQs and was rightly made aware that we do have a board for that in the forums .

@pwired. If you can start a thread in the FAQ board to collate links existing tuts, code snippets that would be great. Maybe under each link have a short description of what the tut is about, etc.. Of course FAQs cannot cover each and every scenario but that's obvious . Ultimately, code examples should be in Gist (or similar) I think. Anyway, I and other members would support you for sure. Are you up for it?

Edited July 31, 2013 by kongondo

[pwired]

Anyway, I and other members would support you for sure. Are you up for it?

Ok Kongondo,

We'll instead of a thread in FAQ that eventually will go down the list, I prefer it's own channel in community support, but that depends on the chief commander. But I think it's a good start so yes I am up for it.

I already started the thread in FAQ and looking for links to post there.

Working on it.

How can I change the title of the thread later on ?

[kongondo]

How can I change the title of the thread later on ?

Use the full editor when editing your post

[Zahari M.]

I know people learn in different ways, but in my opinion, the existing documentation (it's on the site, you can't miss it) goes through all the important concepts that are needed to begin with PW. As a bonus, it even teaches you some PHP basics. After (and only after) reading the documentation, the default install is also a great place to learn.

I agree that a snippets library would be very useful, but certainly not for learning. I completely disagree that we should have a place where beginners start learning how to do small tasks without completely grasping the basic concepts of $page and $pages. That's how all the bad habits begin. That's how Javascript once almost ruined the web

@Zahari,

I don't see that as a problem at all. Yes, PW assumes you have a basic knowledge of these like I said in order to effectively use its tools. In order to use this system, you need to have that knowledge. Similarly, in order to use Joomla, the system assumes you can use a mouse and a keyboard to click point and enter data . PW does not seek to replicate what those systems do. Maybe this should be made clearer in the docs if they are not clear enough. 

Interesting.... you two guys are the nicest and most helpful here!! But from what I see in your replies, both of you "seem" to almost think that the "current" state of documentation is "good enough". Some here also seem almost to champion the point of view that PW doesn't assume things and hence doesn't include many things. Well, Im here saying that these points of views are creating a real barrier of to entry to ProcessWire for "some of us". They are almost elitist responses.

Im totally with the concept of not including anything as standard. But anyone who would be coming here from WordPress would want a tagging system. Why? Because such functionality transcends any CMS. They would want a tagging system because it offers such great value to everyone. It's got nothing to do with WordPress.

What would be great is if there was a self contained "tag recipe" that worked through how one could build a tagging system. Maybe such an article exists already? i dont know, because I would have to go and hunt thru all the threads to find it to know this. It's just not obvious to me where to find it.

Yes, yes, there is a blog profile. But for a newbie, you are having to grasp with such an incredible amount of information all at once that it is overwhelming.

I would like to reitterate my point. Its' not that there is anything wrong with the current documentation. It is that it does not have alongside it some good "prefaces" that would help one understand all the docs much better if they read the prefaces.

Anyways, what I would ask is this. If there is anyone here who can relate to my situation and knows PW well enough and could help me with some code snippets, please send me a private message. Basically I would want to ask them how to do certain things, and then I can do a video of how to do it. For example.... what snippet would I need to generate 3 random posts. That sorta stuff...

Time for less talk and to go make some videos

Cheers guys!

[kongondo]

Interesting.... you two guys are the nicest and most helpful here!! But from what I see in your replies, both of you "seem" to almost think that the "current" state of documentation is "good enough".

My opinion as I have expressed it is that the documentation could do with more examples and to be honest there has been some real effort to improve it. I have seen that since I started here. Only the last couple of weeks new sections have been added, the last one was last week I think (about multilingual sites). So, I am not saying the documentation is "good enough" full stop. My opinion is that it is good enough to get you started. You only need to read about $page, $pages and selectors to be on your way. You also need to try out some of the tutorials. Maybe, and I restate maybe, (not you in particular) some members try to jump in too quickly to create great things with PW or try to quickly to convert a site to PW without first trying to understand the basics. I don't think that's the way to go about it. Before jumping into the CMS world, I used plain HTML. I had to learn the basics of CMS world before I could make anything with Joomla. I am not saying that is how we should all learn; we learn differently. However, in any learning process there must be an understanding of the basics. In other words, the message is please help us help you.

Some here also seem almost to champion the point of view that PW doesn't assume things and hence doesn't include many things. Well, Im here saying that these points of views are creating a real barrier of to entry to ProcessWire for "some of us". They are almost elitist responses.

I must apologise if I sounded elitist. I did not mean to create offence. If I did, I am sorry. I cannot speak for Diogo but knowing him, he is not elitist. In fact, I have not encountered any elitists views in these forums. In my excitement to have you relate to my experience I probably did not choose my words carefully. Like I said, I was trying to relate to my situation. I did not know much about PHP before I started using PW. Yes, I'd seen an echo here and there and knew about variables but could never code anything beyond "hello world". PW has helped me improve my PHP skills. I see myself getting better at it daily, by asking questions and trying out things. As a btw, I am in the process of helping to improve "access" to PW by writing up tutorials. You may have seen my post about it. If not, check out my rather unfinished (erm, barely begun) site.

On the issue of assuming things, I think there's some misunderstanding. PW assumes (in the sense of expects) that you have some basic knowledge of HTML, CSS and PHP (very basic). Otherwise, you will not be able to use the system. The other meaning of "assume" that is being conveyed is that PW does not make decisions for you regarding how you want to structure your site or what sort of logic you want to use. It does not "assume" that it knows what you want. It does not get in your way. Rather, it lets you use its tools to create what you want, how you want. I think that is what is being said here?

What would be great is if there was a self contained "tag recipe" that worked through how one could build a tagging system. Maybe such an article exists already? i dont know, because I would have to go and hunt thru all the threads to find it to know this. It's just not obvious to me where to find it.

There are several (maybe lots?) of posts that talk and teach how to do tagging in PW. Yes, we all agree they don't jump right at you hence the suggestion to use Google to search the forums (e.g. tags site:processwire.com/talk). This is a stop-gap measure as the references to examples and the docs are improved. This takes time. Hope you have noticed that pwired has started an effort to collate useful resources, code snippets and tutorials in one post to help newbies. You do not need to go and hunt thru all the threads. If you had time, I would suggest that you actually read as many posts as you can. My experience (which may not be your way of doing things) is that I read all the forum posts when I got interested in PW and before I joined the forum. It took me several months but it also helped me lots. I bookmarked stuff and read and re-read to understand stuff. I am not saying you or others must do this; just advocating it, if you have time. The rewards outweigh the costs. Then again, I am crazy

Anyways, what I would ask is this. If there is anyone here who can relate to my situation and knows PW well enough and could help me with some code snippets, please send me a private message. Basically I would want to ask them how to do certain things, and then I can do a video of how to do it. For example.... what snippet would I need to generate 3 random posts. That sorta stuff...

I relate to your situation. I have been in your shoes. Most of us (all of us I think) have been in your shoes. The great Soma whose fingerprints you see all over this place has been in your shoes. He's shared his experience here in the forums. He read the docs and tried and asked in the forums and read more. Look where he is now . I am trying to encourage you here not to give up . Look at Diogo, Pete, Anti, Teppo, pwired and many more. They all started from not knowing much. Diogo is a designer. Pwired started with questions, he's getting more comfortable with the system everyday. Vineet Sawant is a designer but he's coding crazy things at the moment. How? By asking and trying, breaking and mending things.

What am I saying? I do not think it is a good idea to ask for help to code snippets in a PM. Why? Because if you ask a question and are answered publicly, it helps the next person. I am not saying that you shouldn't PM someone for some specific question though. But it helps us all if we can share in both your question and the answers provided. So please, do not feel as if you have been pushed out of the forums. Please, ask questions; ask lots of questions . Questions have helped us all. I mean, even Ryan himself asks questions here in the forums. Yes, he does not know everything believe it or not .

As for your question about 3 random posts.....an example..

$pages->find("template=posts, limit=3, sort=random");

Please also check out the examples in the docs. They cover most of this sort of thing..

Anyway, this post is way too long and has severely digressed from the original topic, sorry.

Cheers!

Edited August 1, 2013 by kongondo

[Zahari M.]

Hi kongondo

I think you and I agree on a lot of things and would be good mates at a pub!

This threads exchanges have only further illuminated to me that I have a very different philosophy on how ProcessWire can best be learnt when your approaching it as a beginner. I disagree with a few things that have been said here. But Im not one to want to argue.

The fact remains that someone like me finds it difficult to learn ProcessWire for the reasons I outlined.

No matter. I will go ahead and do things my own way and make my own tutorials with snippets . Perhaps they will only make sense to me and a few others as it appears that Im in a minority in all of this. But thats cool

Anyways, cheers guys!

Still lots to learn from all of ya!

[kongondo]

Hi Zahari,

I'd be very happy to assist you with any questions when you get down to doing the tutorials. I'm no expert, still learning too! . Any help you can provide to make PW better is appreciated. As usual, please feel free to start threads to ask questions, thanks.

[diogo]

Zahari, not wanting to be elitist here, by the contrary. I think PW can be learnt by absolutely everyone that has the will. Better yet, all the knowledge that you get from learning PW will be useful in general and not only for working with this tool. I just think it's dangerous to start copy/pasting without understanding, and I'm not saying that you will do that, but I'm sure that lots of people will if the pieces of code are at hand...

About the documentation... also not saying that it can't be better (although I really like it as it is), just that there is a concept in it. It's not that it has been left incomplete by lack of time or something. The goal of it being so small is that you can read it all in some hours and be confident that you will be ready to start right away. Truth is it worked for me and also for some others. As soon as I finished reading it, I started working with PW. And I wasn't just doing things like wondering how to change the sidebar to the left, or how to remove a link from the navigation, like I was in other CMS's that I've tested before. I was immediately building from scratch, even without being a coder. And that's priceless.

[pwired]

I will go ahead and do things my own way and make my own tutorials with snippets . Perhaps they will only make sense to me and a few others as it appears that Im in a minority in all of this.

Zahari, you are certainly not the only one. There are more out there who have trouble becoming good with pw

because pw has such an amazing open potential. It can be for many reasons like having only designer experience. Anyway we are all here to learn the amazing open potential of pw.

One good advice: Go do things your own way with your own tutorials and snippets only to become

more familiar with pw.

Don't risk learning tricks, patterns and solutions that you have to leave later on

because they turn out to be flawed. Is only waist of time.

Doing these tutorials a couple of times is also a good way to become more familiar with processwire

http://processwire.com/tutorials/

Also have a look what I just started, I am sure you are going to find something helpful here:

http://processwire.com/talk/topic/4173-grouped-forum-posts-links-articles-tutorials-code-snippets/

After being more familiar with processwire, come back to the processwire api tutorials concentrate on how pages and templates work in processwire and continue from there.

Start with these ones first, they are the core and will let you make rapidly good websites.

http://processwire.com/api/

http://processwire.com/api/templates/

http://processwire.com/api/variables/

http://processwire.com/api/selectors/

[Zahari M.]

For everyone who has replied, I am very grateful to you.

But this will be the last time I will be checking into this particular thread as I obviously cant articulate the problem clearly enough. And the truth is I'm getting a lil bit fatigued with some of the responses that instead of looking at what might be missing, rather champion the current "status quo" of things and how someone is expected to learn!!

Lol! Kinda ironic and funny

But no worries. No offence at all is taken and again, I have so much to learn from you guys and am very grateful to all of ya!

Thanks kongondo for offering me the facility to ask you some questions. I appreciate that and certainly will be doing so. I've got the first couple of videos kinda worked out. They will be on how to enter content in. It's the getting it out, or rather getting some of it out that I'll need your help with mate!

Cheers guys

[diogo]

I know you won't resist to look here one more time, so I will answer

Might be that I'm working with PW and in this forum for too long, and am overlooking some difficulties that people might have. So other approaches to make people feel at home are welcomed for sure. As for the official Docs, and for the way PW works (where some things have to inevitably be assumed), choices have to be made, and those belong to Ryan with the help of us all (so, keep proposing).

I'm getting a lil bit fatigued with some of the responses that instead of looking at what might be missing, rather champion the current "status quo" of things and how someone is expected to learn!!

I can't help to be a bit sad that you interpreted mine, and others, responses like this. Again, we are talking about the official docs. How can you write documentation without deciding how you want people to learn? When you teach, you are always deciding how others will learn... and tough choices have to be made.
 

[onjegolders]

I do see Zahari's point though I'm more inline with Diogo's and Kongondo's (we're lucky to have you 2 guys in our community, we really are ).

I remember someone once pointing out as a link to documentation php.net and it does hold true to a great extent. Using PW is basically using the PHP language with an incredibly helpful API on top.

You sort out your selector using $page or $pages then you use PHP to loop through your content.

I really think 90% of using PW comes down to something so simple. Yet it's not easy to grasp a) if your PHP is too basic (as mine was) or b) you come from using another system where you're made to believe that things just have to be more complicated than they should be.