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Yes. I've worked for agencies and with them. I've approached an agency who was full WordPress and in conversation explained the features and benefits of PW. The conversation went well but they declined to work with me. When I talked about stability and long term security, they simply said that the problems and bad parts of WordPress were part of their business model. They were quite satisfied selling a substandard product that they can count on breaking simply because they can charge their customers to fix it. There are a lot of reasons behind the decisions at agencies. I'm not discounting your thoughts on the website, many good points, and I know that you're not alone in those sentiments. I think that it's really good that devs who regularly use PW and care about it share those thoughts. It's something that makes this community unique 👍 I doubt there's not going to be a redesign. Maybe some Iterative feedback would be constructive if Ryan and the designers are open to it. It's easier to help incrementally improve support of the work that needs to be done. Not everyone will be satisfied 🤷‍♂️ An open and honest conversation in good faith is something to be encouraged. I personally always think content first. Maybe a conversation about what is said, how it's said, and how impactful it is as stated on the site can help. I can't find it for the life of me but I know that Ryan put a out a question of "what should be on the website?" in a post. There were a lot of great suggestions, and that's a lot of work. Maybe there can be some community contributions. Design follows content- so if there's something to say, it can help be the basis or blueprint for suggestions and improvements to the design. Want a section with stats? Perhaps share some research and stats you believe should be showcased and the text that supports it. Boxes with numbers in a wireframe don't justify the change, content does. All that said, my perspective is one that I think is worth considering: Operate on the assumption that a design change won't be a solution to client challenges. That's pretty much it. Whether it's true or not is irrelevant. I'll mention why in my last bit below. I would go so far as to say this applies to any equation, e.g. "I'm having client challenges with x because of y". Here are some specifics of my approach. Is it really because of the website? The website isn't that old. Is this a temporary dip in business? Has someone communicated, either directly or indirectly, that the website may have affected their decision? Unless you can confidently point to an example then it's just vibes and speculation. This is a question is less about an answer and more for considering all angles. Refresh the approach. Are there ways to reduce the impact of force "X" that may cause conflict? Is there something that can be discussed ahead of time, or after a conversation has already taken place? For the sake of example, let's use the website as the challenge. Here's how I would approach it in a follow up conversation where ProcessWire had already been discussed, there is some hesitancy, and my concern is that the website didn't help convince them in my favor. "So we had discussed using ProcessWire as the CMS for this project. I don't know if you've looked into it or visited the website, personally, I think it's a little more tailored for developers and programmers. There are a few other things I wanted to go over and cover any thoughts or questions you had since the last time we met" (or spoke, whatever) Strategy: I brought up the CMS, not always possible, but if I'm convinced that the CMS is holding things back then it's time to engage. Regardless of who brings it up, I take the forward position rather than defend. I stated outright a shortcoming that I think X has If I suspect X then I bring up X if/when possible. This does one of two things: confirms that it wasn't the culprit, or deflects an opinion they may/may not have based on something I perceived is a negative. Opened it up for them to share their thoughts after removing barriers I know this isn't applicable to everyone, or can be implemented exactly- but the concepts are not limited to this example. I also know that we are an international community where social norms, customs, and language may need an approach more appropriate for you. Reframing the conversation with an honest and confident approach is always a good way to connect. I like to own the perceived weaknesses in a conversation. Build an example website. Here's the one that I think may have the biggest effect. ProcessWire doesn't have an example site where you can log in and explore. We are web designers and developers! If you don't like a website, build another one 😎 If the ProcessWire website isn't having the impact you need, it's possible to help take control of that variable. Again, we're assuming that a design change to the ProcessWire website won't be a solution to client challenges. If you have a concept that you believe will speak to the features and strengths that matter to your clients the most, then there's no better way to speak to them than this. You know your clients and the potential clients you are working to gain better than anyone. Full stop. If I remember correctly, @bernhard had/has an example PW site that you could log into, make changes, save, delete, whatever, and every X amount of time or PW event all the changes are reverted. If that's true perhaps he can share that and some tips based on his extensive knowledge and experience; Challenge: Build as a community An example site with real world features, a great design, and a focus on usability is a great tool to showcase software. Many CMS sites have them. Regardless if you love the new PW site or not, there is no argument that an example site would be far more effective at illustrating the power and capabilities of PW as it relates to clients, either end users or agencies. This would be an opportunity for the community to build something that pushes things forward. I don't want to speak for Ryan, but perhaps this contribution would get a link on the site. If fit gets official support, perhaps a subdomain. I don't want to say "if you think it's that easy then try doing it yourself", but this would indeed bring in the challenges of group collaboration, planning, and delegation. That said, it's a blank slate without constraints. Take the collaborative effort that would be directed at improving the ProcessWire website, or the work that would be required to redesign it, and use it to make an experience that stands on its own. Ryan and the designers of the new site are working on the core and continuing to refine the new admin. I think expectations have to be realistic here. The priority is the functionality and quality of the ProcessWire experience. I wouldn't assume there's time to stop work on those and work on the PW site. There's nothing stopping the community from taking on this challenge and work together or working on our individual strategies. I think your original post @MrSnoozles is one that contains the topic of two threads. Website design feedback, and navigating client challenges possibly due to the website redesign. I focused on the latter because it's widely applicable and something that you, me, and everyone else can work on changing now. While that's happening, in the meantime contributing to a design conversation about the website if valuable but is at the very least a medium to long range timeline.

I wouldn't call it extensive knowledge 😅 It was just a regular PW installation that was copied via cronjob to another vhost on the server (both files and DB).

💯! I couidn't have said it any better - and said similar things in the past. At least 95% of my clients don't care about what is used to achieve their goals. They need tools that work, are easy to use, have a low barrier to onboard new editors to maintain content or data. Quite a lot of times, yes. I migrated a bunch of Wordpress, Typo3, Joomla projects over to ProcessWire and everyone was happy with the result. The moment you have to deal with lots or tons of data ProcessWire beats everything. This already starts with simple things like events (parties, concerts, those kind of events) and you take care of archiving old events. 🤯 Try this with WordPress. Try to automate things. It's super easy in ProcessWire. Remove daily maintenance tasks from your clients schedule - use this as a selling point - and they will understand. Depending on how big the project/budget was I either [a] showed them the most critical details about ProcessWire, like Security, API, Backend, Templates, Multilanguage, Access Rights/Roles. Everything is in the core, no additional modules/plugins needed. [b] built a MVP of the project, showcased automation, user management, access rights/roles, and let them (or those that would have to do so in the future) add/edit/delete content and data. BUT... When my only part in a project is implementing the design, build out templates, components, blocks - everything frontend - I don't care what they use later on as CMS. [Side note] Don't get me wrong about the overall topic. I think the new design/website could profit from some tweaks and iterations. I'd love to see more content and examples towards developers. Not only the basic API things, but how easy it is to work with it. Even when you are totally new to it.

Free version of Microsoft FrontPage Express on Windows 98 made me think I didn't have to learn any more fancy HTML until I found out that was all a lie 🤣

I don't want to be too blunt and I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never referred a client to a software or service website as part of the education process. It doesn't do anything for them. You are the expert. The person making the pitch should be able to fully explain the technology stack to the extent that the conversation requires it in language they can understand because we are the interpreters. Clients trust me because I am the expert and the top 3 things they care about are these, in this order: How much is this going to cost me? Why don't we use xxx? (or, our current site is xxx I'm not sure we want to switch) When is it going to be done? Sending a client to any site for tools or software is like saying "here, do your own research". The ProcessWire site, like any other development tools/software sites, isn't there to woo clients. Most clients don't care enough to take time and truly understand it because that's not their job. If a curious client is in a position to go to websites like ProcessWire, several steps have been skipped in the client discovery/planning process IMHO. I'd even go so far as to say that if a site has "Docs" or "Documentation" in the primary nav, it's not for clients and they shouldn't be there. I hope this isn't a too hot a take... I would say that improvements could be made iteratively with more use of color for contrast, emphasis, and indicating priority. I think it's a flexible design that can evolve in whatever capacity that may be needed. This has the ability to highlight some impressive facts and figures. No notes on the content, some elements could be integrated into the current design. Even then, facts and figures are for devs. I used the word "scalability" with a manager once and they stopped the conversation to ask "wait, what does that mean?" and still didn't care when I explained. A a CMS or framework site is never going to lead to clients translating what's on the page to time or money. In all likelihood, the conversation you are having with a client at 10:00 just followed a call with their product distributor at 8:00am, their accountant at 9:00, and at 11:00 they're meeting with other members in management. Personally, I would no sooner send someone to processwire.com than I would laravel.com. You are the time and money. I agree with this. I will go out on a limb and say the number of end customers who went to the Drupal site and left thinking they need a Drupal site isn't zero, but it's probably close. If someone is hiring a Drupal developer then they're in a role where it's part of their job to understand the tech stack even if they aren't a dev. Visiting wordpress.com, it doesn't target the end user but name recognition still draws business which overcomes the website entirely. This is fair. It doesn't take a monitor that computer professionals use to get this experience. All you need is a consumer iMac. I think iteration can address concerns. I don't want to belabor the point, but to be fair, did you ever send a client to the QuarkXpress website... Just a little joke ☺️ Cheers from a fellow old school developer who built their first website in 1997 and tinkered with QuarkXpress 🍻

No to mention other issues like the following. On my 2560x1440 monitor, while scrolling, I get views like: I guess I do not have to explain why this is far from ideal. Just a big bulge blob with a subscription form in it and that’s it? To whom does it look professional?

I disagree. As a designer and developer, I think the new design is much more professional, contemporary, and appropriate. Compare it to the Dupal or WordPress website. Do you think they are better positioned? What information do you think is missing for customers?

The following is written in somewhat hurry, but I'm sure most of you get what I mean. What Processwire really needs is: Section for practical code examples. Searching through the forum gets tiresome and sometimes it can take hours to find what you're looking for. The API is good, but sometimes very opaque if you don't already posses good deal of knowledge about it. Admin needs some kind of "settings" page that puts things like "password strength" in one easy to reach place. Basically everything the core modules do, should be here. Then if you want to edit something, it will point you to the right module. Currently a lot of core features are very fragmented and hard to find if you don't know they exist in the first place. I think them being in the modules is great, but one page that gathers all that information is easy to digest form would make it better.

Always wanted those on Page. Even before custom classes existed. Great addition! I think that custom classes truly need more introduction and use cases. So eagerly waiting for Ryan's upcoming blog post.

View website: ID Studio Web Agency We have been working on the ID Studio website for quiet some time using ProcessWire extensively for ourseleves and 90% of all our clients. This post will highlight some features we have implmented and also show off some of the hidden functionality. A quick overview is as follows: Custom web design of course 🙂 Front-end uses Canvas and Three.JS The core objective for us is to get users engaged, reviewing the showcase and services, then getting in touch The showcase and blog have alot of content We hide the ID Lab and About section in the footer but there if folks want to dive in and have the time Development features include: We use the form builder system with some custom modifications 3D tools and management Linking 3D elements to HTML elements Repeater matrix for content panels and lots more, best way is to see it on the video overview below ID-Overview.mp4

This is an inputfield module I made as a replacement for InputfieldPageListSelect, due to frustration with it not opening the page structure to the currently selected page. Please note the requirement of ProcessWire >= v3.0.248 when using it as an inputfield for a Page Reference field due to this now fixed core issue. The module doesn't make the PW version a strict requirement in case you just want to replace instances of InputfieldPageListSelect via the bundled ReplacePageListSelect module. Page Tree Select An inputfield for selecting a single page from the page tree. This inputfield is similar to the core InputfieldPageListSelect, but it has the following advantages: It automatically expands the tree to the currently selected page. This avoids having to drill down through the tree when you want to change the selection to a sibling or child of the currently selected page. This was the primary motivation for creating the module. It's faster to navigate through because the whole tree is rendered at once rather than branch by branch. It provides a filter feature to locate pages by title anywhere in the tree. When the tree is filtered you can hover a page title to see the breadcrumb path to the page in a tooltip. It provides buttons to clear the current selection, to restore a changed selection, and to scroll to the selected page. Configuration The following config options are available when using the module as an inputfield for a Page Reference field: Exclude admin pages: excludes pages from the tree that have the admin template (only affects superusers who can otherwise see pages with this template). Exclude pages by template: pages having any of the templates you select here will be excluded from the tree. Descendants of any excluded pages are also excluded. Limit for total pages in the tree: this limit is applied to the selector that finds pages for the tree (default is 5000). Limitations and considerations Performance seems to be reasonable when the tree consists of up to 5000 pages. Your mileage may vary and the module may not be suitable for sites with a very large number of pages (unless excluding pages by template in the inputfield configuration). Pages in the tree show their titles rather than any custom setting defined for the template "List of fields to display in the admin Page List". Page titles are only shown in the default language. The module does not reproduce some of the quirks/features of ProcessPageList such as excluding pages that are hidden and non-editable, and forcing the sort position of special pages like Admin and Trash. ProcessWire >= v3.0.248 is needed for the inputfield to appear as an option in Add Field due to this now fixed core issue. Replacing InputfieldPageListSelect in the ProcessWire admin An autoload module named ReplacePageListSelect is bundled with InputfieldPageTreeSelect. Install the module if you would like to replace all instances of InputfieldPageListSelect in the ProcessWire admin with InputfieldPageTreeSelect. For advanced use cases there are two hookable methods: ReplacePageListSelect::allowReplacement($inputfield): set the event return to false to disable replacement on particular instances of InputfieldPageListSelect. ReplacePageListSelect::getPageTreeSelect($inputfield): set excludeAdminPages, excludeTemplates and limitTotalPages properties on the event return InputfieldPageTreeSelect object when replacing particular instances of InputfieldPageListSelect. https://github.com/Toutouwai/InputfieldPageTreeSelect https://processwire.com/modules/inputfield-page-tree-select/