MODX Cloud to become “SiphonLabs”

[kongondo]

Just stumbled upon this interesting new direction for MODX and the subsequent discussion. As an ex-MODXer, am not really sure what to think of the move. I am still stunned at the moment. Seems the biggest issue is revenue generation. I get that point....but still...the move is shocking...

I have read about half of the discussion in that forum and there are some interesting takes. Naturally a move like this may also raise questions about the future of PW. I recall reading a post by Ryan C (as opposed to MODX Ryan T ) assuring the community about the future & stability of PW. As you will see, PW is mentioned several times in the MODX forums.

[fenton]

things went wonky after they got that "big investor" on board and started talking about taking on the big three. but don't worry, according to most of their blog posts, everything's "amazing"

[Wanze]

I've also read the whole thread. I think this is a move in the wrong direction for modx.

Started with modx evo and then used revo - until I discovered ProcessWire.

Btw. amazing post here from einsteinsboi ( do I correctly remember seeing him her also in this forum? )

http://forums.modx.com/thread/83497/modx-core-development-team-abandoning-modx-please-read?page=16#dis-post-462193

I can't imagine that something similair is ever going to happen with ProcessWire

[kongondo]

I've also read the whole thread. I think this is a move in the wrong direction for modx.

Started with modx evo and then used revo - until I discovered ProcessWire.

Btw. amazing post here from einsteinsboi ( do I correctly remember seeing him also in this forum? )

http://forums.modx.com/thread/83497/modx-core-development-team-abandoning-modx-please-read?page=16#dis-post-462193

I can't imagine that something similair is ever going to happen with ProcessWire

It is a nice post.. einsteinboi is a she btw Yes, she's posted here before. She's also been tweeting about PW (as recently as this week).

things went wonky after they got that "big investor" on board and started talking about taking on the big three. but don't worry, according to most of their blog posts, everything's "amazing"

Investors can be good and bad Of course investors will promote and protect their interests first...

[kongondo]

There's also these...

Where do we go from here?

A Change of Scenery

[pwired]

Started with modx evo and then used revo - until I discovered ProcessWire.

Same here but gave up on revo and discovered PW as evo on turbo.

Yes, Mary, alias einsteinboi posted here before in the forum. She has posted a whole lot of tutorials on the internet and always brings the best of it for beginners to start with. I have to give her credit for helping a lot of beginners, like me, into Modx Evo at the time.

http://codingpad.maryspad.com/

http://codingpad.maryspad.com/category/modx/

http://codingpad.maryspad.com/category/drupal/

[ryan]

I thought that the MODX move was interesting too (as were the EE changes a few months earlier). I don't think it affects anything about ProcessWire, other than that it seems to drive more users here. We won't be following the path of MODX, in case anyone was worried. We get paid by the sites and apps that we develop with ProcessWire, and by the commercial support of modules like FormBuilder and ProCache. I don't have any inside knowledge on the changes at MODX, and may not understand the full scope of them, but here's my outsider opinion about it…

I can understand why it is shocking to folks that use MODX, because it kind of destroys the perception of MODX as being a big and stable player. In my mind, they were a big and successful company, and I think that was a lot of other people's perception too. Why would they ever have to rely on a little hosting company with a toilet name and an HTML5 logo? MODX is way above this, or so I thought.

The changes instead reveal reality that's probably always been there… MODX is a labor of love rather than profit, as most open source projects are (including us). But MODX has grown big enough in user base that keeping the whole ship afloat means having a team people that dedicate lots of time to it. These people have to be paid in order to take care of their own families, etc. So it looks to me like they are just making the tough decisions necessary to keep the team together and stable. It's not pretty (especially the Siphon part), but digging up the floor to fix the plumbing never is.

WordPress has proven that hosting is a safe and viable business model to sustain a big open source project. Supporting other CMSs on the Siphon platform is probably just about risk reduction (put the eggs in a few different baskets… err, siphons… rather than all in one) and it would probably make a lot more than it would cost. None of us should view CMSs as religions. I'm glad that I can run Windows apps on my Mac now, when I need to; that doesn't make me prefer Windows. I'm not sure that having web hosting that can only run MODX would be worthwhile. The value proposition with WordPress hosting (which can only run WordPress) is entirely different. Most people using MODX (and ProcessWire) are professionals that have multiple tools. Most people using WordPress are consumers that know how to write, but don't know anything about web development. Given the different audience, I don't think MODX could duplicate WordPress's hosting success by only hosting one product. But I do think they can be successful by catering to the needs of the audience, which is rarely glued to a single product. If diversifying the eggs among multiple baskets helps to drive development for MODX, then that can only be a good thing. Hopefully that's their intention.

If their reality really is as it sounded, then the changes were probably good, even if shocking. I think the fear that people might have is that this is somehow driven by investors trying to monetize the software for themselves. But that just doesn't seem to add up in this case. Instead it presents a lack of sustainability in their existing system that had to be fixed (which is itself shocking). I'm just surprised that: 1) They aren't as big and successful as I thought; 2) They don't have a stronger source of income; 3) Any of this was necessary; and: 4) They told us.

I don't think that folks should abandon MODX because of the changes. Their team has put themselves in a vulnerable spot and we should support them. While I don't totally understand their changes, it seems like they are doing this to find sustainability more than anything else. While I support and wish the best for MODX in their changes, I also want to be clear that we will not be following that path. We're already on a beautifully sustainable path here, thanks to all of you.

[Pete]

Too... many... toilet references... ryan But yes, I instantly thought of plumbing too and agree with someone's comment on the MODx forums about the logo being reminiscent of the HTML5 and Magento logos.

I think the only logical reason for another name is the fact that the new service will host other products such as WP, but it would have been nice to somehow keep it similar whilst descriptive somehow (xhost.com is for sale by some cyber-squatting domain holding company for example).

That aside, the need to raise money through one service or another to keep a team working is just something that happens when many open source projects get to a certain stage from what I can tell. At some point during the lifecycle of a few of the projects I've kept an eye on, someone ends up working on support full-time or on coding full-time, and there needs to be a source of income at that stage. Usually the full-time coding side of things comes when the project attempts to add something massive as part of the core or rewrite all of the code every few years, but we're blessed with ryan developing optional modules to add functionality and having created a wonderfully abstracted API which allows for code changes behind the scenes and a set of API commands that will change very little if ever in most over the years and not break backwards compatibility *finally takes a breath*.

Commercial support is a subject that has cropped up elsewhere on the forums in the past so that is about the most corporate thing that I can think of that might be on the horizon for ProcessWire as several devs have enquired about it, but that's a topic for the future, is something that doesn't affect 99% of users and doesn't affect the usual support on the forums anyway as it's all about paying for SLA's by web dev companies and... businessy stuff... (sorry, it's late and my brain is clouding over with a headache ).

I've not been keeping up with MODx in recent years, but whilst they have always had a small, core team of devs doing most of the work I think a lot of ryan's impression of them being a big company may come from an active community (we're getting there as well, definitely!) and a smart looking website (nothing wrong with ours, just picking a description for theirs). Their website when I first discovered MODx definitely said "open source" to me: http://web.archive.org/web/20080103101906/http://www.modxcms.com/ whereas the current one is simply more businesslike and makes them look bigger despite it being more or less the same core team as 4 years ago.

I wasn't really going anywhere with that last paragraph other than to say that it's difficult to gauge the size of the team or the capital behind a project from looks alone as the two are worlds apart - and there was a friendlier design in between that one and the current one too that reminds me a bit more of the current ProcessWire site and I think they should have kept for longer: http://web.archive.org/web/20110208164501/http://modxcms.com/

Whatever changes are made to any project, if they're big enough then some people won't like it. A lot of people just don't like change, but much of it can be alleviated by releasing a comprehensive FAQ when such changes are made as it prevents much of the speculation that so quickly spirals out of control.

Anyway... my train of thought has pulled into the station and I think that's my lot for the night

[Mark Hamstra]

I'd strongly recommend reading the follow up by MODX Co-founder Ryan (T), posted last night: http://modx.com/blog/2013/04/10/putting-the-band-back-together/

SiphonLabs is not MODX, but it is the Cloud team being flushed away from MODX. And that has the side effect of liberating the MODX team to focus once again on what matters: building MODX. While I can fully understand that there's confusion and people wondering what on earth is going on, this change isn't new - it was put in motion in early January. In that time, Ryan (T) has been working incredibly hard to give MODX a fresh start and making things happen that need to happen. 

[kongondo]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for dropping by. Interesting post by Ryan T. It still leaves me confused though...but this is a matter I'd raise in that post, not here necessarily. He says Jason is back? Naturally that raises questions why he went to the "other side" in the first place. Anyway, that's not important now. Obviously there are some behind the scenes stuff that we are not (and do not need to be) privy to. As much as I am now firmly and fully using PW, MODX was my first love and I will always wish that it succeeds. Interesting choice of words by you ("Cloud team being flushed away") but again, I am not suggesting you explain what you mean. I hope Shaun was not flushed away! I am also curious how MODX will now deal with the issue of revenues. But that's for another day.

[diogo]

flushed away through the siphon!

had to say it

[ryan]

Glad to hear this. We have so many here that are part of the MODX community too that it seems like a family, and I really want to see MODX do well. 

[Mark Hamstra]

. Interesting choice of words by you ("Cloud team being flushed away") but again, I am not suggesting you explain what you mean.

Hey, everyone is making siphon-related puns, can't I do the same?  

It still leaves me confused though...but this is a matter I'd raise in that post, not here necessarily. He says Jason is back? Naturally that raises questions why he went to the "other side" in the first place.

I think the last thing I should say about this whole situation is that most of the employees of the business (which were 13 at the time) did not ask for the split to happen, however as self-proclaimed "Acquia for MODX" (side-stepping that MODX LLC has been that commercial arm for MODX for years now), SiphonLabs did essentially take all the employees with it, minus Ryan and Jay. So this "other side" is not something people have chosen. Rather, people like Jason and YJ have chosen to go back to the OS side and Ryan T is working really hard on making that possible. 

[WillyC]

keep stink.away siphon do .

be.happy yous should two.have siphon

 inmy country.when i was young.man .we poop in ground hole

when you look.at dark hole.careful must u be

   dark ground hole.look back  

 consumes you it will

no flush no.siphon=stinkers    no girlfriend

   cloud every thing

 impossble

to see.light

   love siphon.you shuld

 flush take all.mush 

[Wanze]

WillyC - thanks

[kongondo]

@Mark,

Thanks for the explanation. I guess Shaun had to make a decision......and he decided to stay at SL.

[zelden]

things went wonky after they got that "big investor" on board and started talking about taking on the big three. but don't worry, according to most of their blog posts, everything's "amazing"

And even more amazing in the MODX Ambassadors newsletter:

MODX is Going Big in 2013

 

Since last fall, we have diligently focused on streamlining and making it easier for people to learn about and adopt MODX. The planning stages are now effectively over, and it’s on to execution. And as an Ambassador, you’re a key part of that effort! With your help, 2013 will go down as the year MODX passes the tipping point!

[Pete]

It'll certainly be interesting to se if they can pass the "tipping point" - I guess that would be something like making the "big 3" into the "big 4"?

There certainly does seem to have been a reconsideration of sorts and they're back to MODx Cloud from SiphonLabs again: http://modx.com/blog/2013/07/25/welcome-back-modx-cloud/

There does seem to be a bit of a push to get MODx rolled out with web hosts' hosting packages so will be interesting to see how that goes.

[MatthewSchenker]

Greetings,

This is interesting. In a way, I feel badly for MODx. It is a capable system with a lot of the qualities designer/developers want for freedom in development. But it seems their niche is vague.

I only experimented with MODx for a short time (while I was using Joomla but before I discovered ProcessWire). From my perspective, MODx is not as wide open and flexible as ProcessWire, it's not in a position to market itself like ExpressionEngine, and it's just not going to appeal to the drag-and-drop crowd that sticks with Joomla, Drupal, and WordPress.

Thanks,

Matthew

[pwired]

The team who once created modx are all top coders. I don't worry about them because top coders always find a source of income and go on with their lives, even in the current economic crisis.

[einsteinsboi]

Just found this thread and my name mentioned in a few places  Thank you. I still use MODX among a bunch of other platforms, and I'm getting more and more into Processwire  I don't have much to add to this thread except that I do worry. One of the main reasons given for SiphonLabs was to help the core devs make money to support MODX, and one of the things mentioned most frequently was that MODX had only two core developers, Jason and Shaun.  Now that Shaun has left (I think he mentioned on Twitter that he's working for BigCommerce now), that means only one developer left working on the core. Yes there are other devs working on addons, but Shaun was one of the major architects.

Anyhow, that's neither here nor there and is a topic for the MODX forums. Just thought I'd drop my 2c and say thanks for the few random mentions

[zelden]

Don't worry, be happy According to Ryan Thrash (modx founder) the financial sustainability of MODX's future "has never been better".

https://twitter.com/rthrash/status/360739196631130113

[ryan]

I would really like to see MODX do well. They have a very similar audience to ours and I think what's good for MODX is also good for ProcessWire. Because there seem to be many people here that are fans of both MODX and ProcessWire, I would gather that the more their audience grows, the more ours does too. 

[Pete]

Don't worry, be happy According to Ryan Thrash (modx founder) the financial sustainability of MODX's future "has never been better".

https://twitter.com/rthrash/status/360739196631130113

Good to hear

[pwired]

Because there seem to be many people here that are fans of both MODX and ProcessWire,

Fans of both modx and pw ? How many people would that be ? There are lots of modx refugees here.

To me it is more that there are lots of ex modx-ers who moved over to pw for 3 main reasons:

1. modx evo roadmap first stopped, was then spread over forks and later on picked up again but by then

pw was already discovered.

2. for many evo users revo was not the answer.

3. revo is too slow and suffers scalability (disclaimer on this third one, this is my opinion - try it your self)

pw is the cms with a core, architecture, and performance many of us have been looking for.

The modx forum is as great as the pw forum. I learned a lot during my evo days thanks to a lot of great people in the modx forum who always help you out in a professional way such as giants like Susan Otwell (19000 posts!!) and Bob Ray, Open Geek, etc. etc. and Mary with dozens of tutos.