lisandi

Thanks Adrian for the hint The point is not that there isn't a module existing which woudl handle the problem it is more that it would be much more usefull to have this field right in place. Take the time: Do setting up a complete Pagetree where you add several child branches step by step. using the csv import module, the batch editor, manual and guess how much time it would take to simply copy paste or even write the child pages into that field and click and they are there. Similar to the profields it is so much faster! Having right in that child Tab an option to setup more than one page at once and even to sort them a-z, z-a or manually, is in point of economical workflow for developers the best option. And it is much more usable and does not at all produce an overhead. Andi

Hi Pete Importing depends on the customer needs. If we import i.e. 30.000 and more pages we usually use the csv import module anyway. But if you have to create subpages or add some more subpages to a tree it is way easier to simply type or copy paste them in a field and click and they are there. subs subpage1 subpage2 subpage3 subpage4 subpage5 click and done! (subs is no page but defines the column. The import module does not import the first value (column header) in the list! The import of csv has the possibility to do exactly that. In other words it would be great to have that field on the Children Tab. This makes it very very easy to create a structure on the fly and it is fast, much faster and much more comprehensive than any api stuff by the way. Unfortunately this module you mentioned does not offer an option to save and publish and than return to the children Tab to add another page, but it is quite useful as it can remember the settings you have chosen. Perhaps there is a way to publish all pages of a branch in one step as otherwise it is a click and click and ... action with waiting for the pagetree to reload every time. The Admin save module is marked as not compatible with 2.5 branch - if it is compatible it would be great if that gets adjusted. This is also with a lot of other modules where there is no 2.5 compatibility. In Terms of easy understanding and usability it would be great if module developers would update their modules and if it is only adding the "2.5". This also shows that the module get's still some attention by the developer and gets maintained. We already had contacted developers of modules and they were no more working with Process for several reasons, but in that case it would be advised that those modules get marked as no more maintained and offered to be maintained by somebody else. simply make a job offer "looking for new maintainer" and for sure there will be people stepping in there.

To increase usuability and much faster working when setting up a site it would be great to have a field for csv,txt data to be imported as new pages. Already there is a csv import module which is working good but to work fast in creating a pagetree or several subpages with several templates assigned each it is slow as you need to create the parentpage in pagetree than click - click to the csv import module and again you need to select the right template and the pagetreepage and than you can import. While the csv import module as a immediate switch to go to the pagetree after an import it would be nice to have the same vice versa and even much much better to have simply the csv import integrated in to the child page TAB field. --- There is also no way to get back to the Children TAB after yo have created one Children Page. It would be good that there is a way to get immediately back to the Children Tab of a Page after creating the first, than the second etc page. Right now it is cumbersom Click on Add new page in children tab and the new page gets created, you save and publish it (actually it would be also good to have a way to save and publish in one step) than you need to click on the breadcrumb to get to the parentpage, which loads the complete pagetree, which is actually not needed right now as you only want to create the next children Page from the Children Tab "Add Page" Thanks

Case: You have to edit thousands of pages and assign to several pages different templates. i.e. when you import pages via csv/txt If you now have to change a branch of pages to use another template you have tp click every single page to do so, which costs a lot of time. beside this it is a huge resource fopr errors that one page gets skipped. To find those pages is not easy as you again have to click every single page than settings and than read what template gets assigned click again to get out and to the next page. A better way would be if there would be a way to list certain db fields from pages also beside the pagetree. i.e. pagetitle - used template file - any other field i.e. from SEO With a click of the "used template file" you would get immediately to the tab on that specific page to change the template. dito to modify other page related settings or fields. To get an overview it would be not enough to have only one page listed with these options. More usable would be to have the possibility to list actually branches or even the complete pagetree with their assigned additional fields and data in a table style to see immediately when i.e. template file hasn't been filled with the correct value or if th seo data of a certain page is missing or wrong. etc.

Hi Horst great work thanks Is it also working with graphicsmagick? Andi

In our experience we only get into trouble when things get not clearly specified in the contract. There fore we offer customers in Germany and Austria (as there we are having problems and no where else - don't know why only there) an AGB which they have to sign and send back! Here it is stated if it is a fixed price project how the billing schedule is and usually we have exact dates for the billing as some customers have the habbit to start a project and than stretch it to nowhere time. This is destructive for the project and also for our company. One reason why we offer FREE Hosting for one year incl Update Service for all Modules and cores when we have installed from START of the project and we define the payment schedule clear by weeks - not by milestones!!! i.e. first rate - usually 50% in advance than 25% after the setup of the base system but latest after 2 weeks after start of the project. Usually than the project is already paid of but we can't make any profit. Often customers wonder why they also receive already the second 25% rate invoice after a few days. This is mostly because when you have organised your work clearly and are working in a team even if it is globally distributed the base setup is very very fast. i.e. Take a Processwire Profile! It would take seconds! to reach the 50% level! Of course you need to calculate all the time in you actually needed to setup yor packages so that you can deploy the bases so fast! ;-) You could say that the first part is like the assembly line of building a car. you only put pre-developed and pre-configured things together without any customization. If now the customer blocks to pay the secon payment you won't loose to much and actually will have already a little profit. the second rate would be than inserting the content. Often agency IMHO make one mistake that they start the templating first and focus on the look. If you are doing this than it bears the chance that the customer will take it and go away with a more or less ready to use system. Usually you can actually explain custemrs very good why the second step would be the content and not the design. Mostly the design depends on the content and not vice evrsa like it is on a print media where it is clearly defined how many words, are allowed to write here and there etc. Most customers are struggeling with that second phase as they simply don't have content and some even think you will provide them the content like one we had who came up and asked: "I can't see on my website that you wrote about shrimp farming in Thailand at all! and where are the pictures so that people will like the page!" The design part is than part 3 and unsually we split the payments up again in milestones here. always 50% of the still open amout. This means the amount you will "earn" is getting bigger and the amout you probably will "loose" is getting smaller. Very important is than at the end, that you get a written consent (especially for German Customers) that the site is OK and that he is fully satisfied. Also on web projects you might have a waranty periode if you are a German or European based development company! be aware of this as this can get very expensive part which also will destruct perhaps other projects when to many requests come in. Actually I recommend to produce webprojects for European Customers from outside of the EU! Much less headaches but still "the payment problem itself"! But check you local laws and tax rules too and deregester from your EU country completely (important mostly to avoid double taxations etc.)! --- For projects which will take longer time or for support or service contracts we don't use the fixed price model but a prepaid man/hour model. i.e. The customer wants to test us, so he can order a minimum of a half a man/day = 4 hours for a quite high amount in comparison to the others . (1500 THB) if they now want to get the hour cheaper they can purchase a full day or a week or a month. We calculated the benefits more or less like this. Buy one man/day and get 2 man/hour free, Buy one man/week (40 hours) and get one man/day (8 hours) free, buy one man/month and get 1 man/week free, buy a man/quarter and get half a man/month (2 weeks = 80 hours) free buy half a man/year and get 1 man/month (4 weeks = 160 hours) free. Buy one man/year and get a man/quarter Free. (12 weeks = 480 hours) (as an example) 1 man/hour means that one person is working 1 hour or 2 persons are working 30 Minutes etc. - A time tracking tool is a MUST! and give tour customer also an access so that he can track also his own time spend with the project or reading emails. Some of our customers did and were amazed how much time it costs alone the communication! Don't be afraid to make the entrance price high - it actually should cover you costs and your full profits and more (don't forget waranty and leagal costs or costs for an inkasso company!). In our experience it helps that people buy at least a week package to try your service! State clearly that even answers to the mails from the customers and any skype talk - actually any action for or with the customer gets billed - make this very clear!!! otherwise you will loose a lot of time and money. Working with Processwire makes actually many things quite easy in terms of billing. It provides Profiles - is very modularized - and it provides lots of tutorials - even video tutorials - where customers can check out a task and see what might get involved, so there are not so much hidden secrets! Don't forget to keep your joker in your hand until the last payment has reached your bank account! One Joker is to use at least one paid module with a license key in the site - and this also supports the development of Processwire ;-) - It would be very good actually when those license keys would NOT be readable for the customers and that they are used like a password! - add one letter somewhere and the license is invalid. For testing take that letter out. --- Last but not least one of the most important points for your cost calculation hasn't discussed here at all: Waranty / Gewaehrleistungs! Don't underestimate it as also Web or Software Projekts ar subject of that. If you haven't clearly excluded specific stuff in your AGB than the Warranty Time of that country usually is in affect and this can be VERY long ( in Terms of a website! For a website even one year is a very long time - simply calculate how many updates will happen during that time! And each update can cause a total blackout if things change to much! IMHO you really should consult a lawyer specified in Internet law before starting, to avoid problems. Switzerland 2 Years Germany 2 Years USA ? UK ? It would be nice learn how the legal waranty gets handled about that in your country too! For Developers working in Germany some helpful links and an example of a "Lastenheft" which you could give to your customers: http://lastenheft-vorlage.de/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/Lastenheft_Vorlage_W&P_1401.doc which has to be provided by the Customer http://www.pm-handbuch.com/pm-vorlagen/ i.e. "Pflichten Heft" which has to be done by the Developer! https://www.thomashelbing.com/de/haftung-gewaehrleistung-fuer-software-diesen-tipps-reduzieren-risiko-it-anbieter - about the leagal situation in Germany concerning Waranties etc.

Hi Dazzyweb Have you ever applied to a job on Odesk or any other Freelance Plattform. If yes you probably realized that they actually try to keep your intros as short as possible which leads to a vacuum in terms of what to client and developer actually know from each other. It is not very useful IMHO. In Germay the law clearly states what is required to provide by whom - the client or the customer. There are two basic form of contract work. The so called "Werk Vertrag" and the so called "Dienst Vertrag" (there are also some other forms like "Werk Lieferungs Vertrag". Depending on what form you want to agree in with your customer the customer himself has to supply all the basic knowledge about his project called "Lastenheft" or you as a Developer have to do it step by step. In Germany itis very important actually to agree in one of those contractal forms to avoid legal problems afterwards. I could not find an English translation - please use Google translate. In some countries this differs but for example in Austria it is pretty much the same. The other question is actually when did you agree to make a contract and what is needed as legal form to make a contract. In some countries you need to agree in written even with a signature and 2 witnesses. In others a contract can be started by doing and behaving like you agreed like in a contract. "Konkludentes Schliessen" - http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schl%C3%BCssiges_Handeln in English it seems to be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implied-in-fact_contract - like in the US. In both cases it actually must clearly be defined which law will actually applied to before you agree! In Internet Business this is often not easy as you probably have aclients work abroad and are perhaps even collaborating with developers wordwide or those who work from remote locations like Maldives, Bali, India, Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand etc. It can even be of importance where your actuall work takes place, which means on a server in US, Germany, Singapore etc. This can make a difference too. so better agree before what legal law should be applied to a certain project - For those from Germany and Austria it is called "Erfuellungsort" http://dejure.org/gesetze/ZPO/29.html, http://dejure.org/gesetze/ZPO/12.html. Perhaps someone knows the right terms in English. It would be nice to know how this gets handled in the US and UK as often customers are hosting in those countries. Especially in international Projects or while working with Outsourcing Companies you need to have all kind of Skype Talks, Screensharing, Kakao. Line etc. communications. The best you actually could do is to agree right at the beginning that you ask the client to send you by mail his "Lastenheft" which means his detailed paper where he introduces the project and all his parts in a very detailed form. As most customers even don't know how to write a Lastenheft you could help in quite easily by providing him an predefined form of tasks. Use Google Docs i.e. or any other questioneer form - even Form maker is very good for this, to provide your customers some red carpet to their project. It might be even helpful to design one together here in another Thread. i.e. if your customer wants to have a website it could start with: Introduction Text What kind of a website do you want? Static pages - HTML Dynmic Pages - CMS You could explain whatis the difference. What do you want to do with the website? Get new customers Inform about my business Present my contact Informations Sell my products etc and there are tons of more questions you could prepare in a Form whichwould help the customer to think a little bit more in advance by himself about his project. Don't forgetto ask them about their Hosting Spaces Specs and enabled Tools as it is hard to deploy Processwire on a Server with PHP 5.2 and only FTP access where you can't even change the Nameserver entries to i.e. use Cloudflare or other Supercharging Services. Such a form could constantly be adjusted so that it would fit more and more the customers needs and your interest to know as much as possible about the project. In our experience it helps a lot if the agreement is based on very clear defined tasks, milestones and payment schedules before development starts. We often charge customers already for consultations and until now we had no bad experience with it beside the problem with some customers as mentioned already. It really depends from where they are IMHO. And Joss is absolutly right. Before we were able to produce our first CD we had to provide tons of Demos and again to get the music streamed over the medias. If you don't have something like "Sony" etc behind you it is a job for free and probably with no reward. Music busines is even harder than web business! If you are inetersted in Music Business than I really recommend John Kelloggs Course (Berklee College of Music)- it is so great! https://www.edx.org/course/berkleex/berkleex-mb110x-introduction-music-4981#.VGC0v9Z1NSY Unfortunately I don't know if something similar is also existing for Web Business or Freelance Business and as I would like to know about it much more. In General @Totoff brought it to the point: Talk short - introduce your self and let the customer present his stiff best in written form. Than agree that from this point everything even consultation, answering emails, skype chats and talkks etc p.p. will count like theywould visit a lawyer which usually also has a small free introdcution time of max 30 Minutes and than not seldom it is getting real expensive! By the way try to calculate your pricing so that your project time already gets paid off with the iitial payment! and the rest is profit! At least the initial payment should pay all your bills during that time otherwise you will face a liquirity problem and running your company boat constantly scratching sand banks - which will mean that you won't be able to manoever anymore!

Hi Nico We started years ago like you and than we moved to Thailand and things changed as the main problem was the payment of the customers and another huge issue is often the content for a website which does simply only exist in the mind of some customers but not in written. Therefore we had to change our workflow. We do nearly no advertising as we get mostly contacted directly by customers or referred from recent and former customers. The two bold marked lines in the above quote is very important if working with especially German customers and customers from Austria. Otherwise you have to invest a lot of time in running after your money which you probably will never see! That is simply a reality and it is not at all good. If this happend to you already than you are not alone. How to deal with none paying customers wold be the Topic of another off topic post! You have to consider different things before you start your work especially on web project: 1. How long will you discuss the project with the custome. We had customers who liked to discuss more than actually deliver a clear "Lastenheft" what it is called in Germany. It is a legal MUST for some kind of work and the customer has to provide this to you and it is actually not your unpaid job to do this job for the customer. 2. Germany is a difficult LEGAL case to as even here in the forum you are not allowed to give "Rechtsberatung". So you do really good to contact a lawyer who is knowledgable in Freelance and Internet law first and setup some AGB with him. Here you can clearly clarify how you handle a project and what are the responsibilities of a customer and those of you and also you can define on who has to provide what at what time frame and in waht form etc. Lots of things should be considered here - especially in Germany to make it later much easier and cheaper for you to go to one of the "Amtsgerichts" and get help for the payments from there. 3. We never ever had problems with payments from US customers. They actually pay us always (since 2002) in advance or in advance after clearly defined milestones. I really don't know why there is sucha big difference depending on where the customer lives or also where he is coming from. You should consider this to before you make your quote. 4. Another issue you are having is with taxes (which are again quite difficult if you are living and working from Germany!) In other words you should also contact a good "Steuerberater" before you start working and writing bills for customers. You also must take in account with whom you are working or collaborating and how you charge those external works or if you employ people to do this. 5. Where will you develop the project. On your server or on theirs, even it is an existing live site project i.e. which needs modifications. 6. Communication with the customer is very important and often customers tend to give you more and more tasks after they agreed that you do the website for them. Make them very clear - in an early state - or even better write it in your "AGB" that you have to make additional agreements before you start on those tasks. this is only in short and there is still more to consider. 7. If you provide Hosting consider the Legal laws and requirements of the country you live in, the one you work from and the one you are hosting! Their legal requirements often differ a lot. Security, Privacy, Copyrights Infringements, Forum, Comments Responsibilities, ... etc are things you will have to deal with beside running a Server Environment and the websites in it. -- Our workflow is like followed: 1. The customer contacts us (usually - mostly referrals) - sometimes we contact the customer (mostly customers which host with us already) 2. We usually a skype chat (also because of the distance to most of our customers) - about 1 hour. We have a prpared list of questions for that! 3. We ask the customer to send us his detailed "Lastenheft" and give us access to things which help us to make a good quote i.e. a former side if existing, images they want to use, content they have already written and want us to insert them etc. 4. We write a quote and send it to the customer including our AGBs and Payment Terms and Schedules. Beside fixed Prices we usually charge by man/hour which depend on how much a customer pays in advance to us. From that amount we deduct the worked man/hours. We make no difference on what kind of work it is as one man/hour is 60 minutes no matter if itis design, editing, writing, programming etc. but This points varies from company to company. 5. The customer can agree or not agree in a given timeframe (this should be clarified in your quote) 6. In case we don't hear anything from that customer in a week we usually contact the costomer by phone to talk to him personally. ( we had very good experience with that as you can actually "hear" if the customer is happy with your quote or not and you can much easier adjust i.e. usually they have also asked others to send a quote. 7. Try to get a written consent. This is not always as easy as it sounds. We usually ask the customer to send us back a singned quote form - you can put a line on it which says that the customer agrees with it and the AGB etc. - We also provide NDAs and sometimes the customer does it so this has to agreed to and signed at that point often even before making the quote or getting additional materials about a project. 8. We wait until the customer makes his first payment - well sometimes we are silly and start working also in advance but often than it results in stuff which gets not so easy paid, so better simply be patient and wait. 9. We start working on the project until the prepaid hours or on fixed prioce projects until a certain milestone. We think it is important that even it is a fixed price project that you have a good timetracking tool. It helps also you to see where what time for what purpose gets spend and if that task is billable or not. 10. If the project is longer than a week we contact the customer every week and he gets a report of work done and the hours already used. - It is easy to do if you are using a timetracking tool. This gives the customer transparency in what you are actually doing and where is money is gone. 11. At Milestones or also when the final of the Projekt has been reached we have a short skype with screensharing with the customer. 12. Often customers actually help us to get their content in. Before they do this they get a training. As long as the project is not finished they will have no admin rights (only editor rights) and the site is usually on one of our server or cloudspaces we create for the project. 13. If there is no more funding available we stop work even it is sometimes hard as you really like what you are doing, but be aware that you probably don't get paid if you did not agree in it. This can happen with fixed price projects but also with man/hour projects, while we experienced that the man/hour model is way more flexible to handle those things. 14. We make another agreement and continue wrk like before i.e. to the next milestone. 15. The Project is ready and optimised on our servers and ready to be moved to the customer server (if he still wishes this - often customers like to stay as we offer free hosting from project start for one year incl update support for security issues which they often don't have on their former hosting spaces. But this is really up to you and keep in mind that hosting websites means a lot of work, even it looks so easy to do! Remark: we also don't host any website so we check before if it would suite our servers. Sometimes it is simply better that they host on a cloudspace which can grow with their site - we tend to move actually all our customers in future to do this kind of hosting to reduce our workload and to limit the growing legal problems wile providing hosting to customers. 16. The customer can check the full functionality in and out as long as the website is still on our server. 17. The Last payment minus the one for moving the site to the customer server which gets listed always as a seperate post gets paid. If the customer is not moving a site this also does not need to be paid, which means we don't calculate the movement as a project cost itself. It is an additional service we provide! Some hosting companies (bigger ones) also provide a moving service to their servers which is often free. If customers are using them it is also fine as they will be responsible that the site will work on their servers lateron too. 18. Support and Maintenance. We agree with customers that we give or not give support. 19. In case we give support there is another agreement which clarifies what gets supported. In case of no support we are done and out of the project and the customer and his site ar on their own. To ensure that none of our customers which host with us gets harmed by an attact to websites which are not supported we include the basic security update support for core and modules which we installed into our hosting plans and charge only for support on external servers - the prices depend again on time and also on the form of access ftp/ssh (which is a huge time difference when doing work) 20. We archive the project and send the customer (or give access to the download) to the customer. Finished

Hi Manfred thanks for your reply I tried to rename the name "default" into english but this is not editable. You can only change the title! When I try to rename it vice versa than I recieve a message :Changed page URL name to "default-1" because requested name was already taken. in other words default is always default and that specific file and that is English Language! Your solution 1. name=english, title=English, english has or needs no files because strings are in core. 2. name=default, title=German, has 1** files with translations 3. name=finnish, title=Finnish, has 1** files with translations would be fine but is simply not working - at least not in 2.5.8 Where exactly do you load those files - to which folder(s) - if you have lot of sites this can be quite painful job with a high chance of errors. -- The solution with the guest user is working in a single page setting or in a homogene mi\ultisite one db setting mut will never work in a multi root language multidomain setting. i.e. We have churches and school-communities etc. all around the world which get managed in multidomain sites - currently in TYPO3 as they share content and have also a very easy way of internal communication without email address. We are planning and thinking about how to get them working in Processwire. as it provides also the multidomain one db feature like TYPO3 and we think we will be more flexible and for sure faster in pageload with Processwire. As those sites are in different mother language area and they have individual sites and domains - some subdomains, the default root language needs to be able to switch. which would mean also the guest user would need to have a way to get multiple languages assigned depending on where he is located inside that multi domain site. In TYPO3 we solve the problem by assigning and defining the default language in TYPOscript and also define an individual language fallback path. If no content is available in the called frontend language than the next lower in the fallback will be tried until it reaches the default language, which is the one the content gets written in its original language depending on the language spoken in that country. The frontend language is separated from the backend. This definition and fallback of languages can be made with each single domain branch inside a multi domain site by inserting in each root page of that multidomain site a different definition and order of fall back languages via TYPOScript. I guess something similar would also be possible via PHP! The branch in US will have i.e. English / French / Spanish / German the default domain home looks like http://our-ngo.org the German Branch has German / English / French / and some have Arabic the default domain home looks like http://our-ngo.de In Thailand we have Thai / English / German / simple Chinese / Burmese (German actually only because i can translate it to German) the default domain home looks like http://thailand.our-ngo.org etc. ... The content itself has always the same language ID which makes it possible to share content all over the site. Always the German Content will be shown also in the German section and the English in the English etc of each Branch

Hi Florian Yes I know that that the english Language is already present in the core. I tried setting the frontend language with the guest language as you suggested. hmm. I can do this only once for all sites as there is only one guest account. If I have now a multidomain site where some sites need to have german as default, others french and again others english as default this won't work. Ok I would need to use the multidatabase approach but than I could not share content so easily like with the one database approach. Isn't there a way to overwrite the default settings so that you actually could define in your _init.php what should be the default language. The main problem with all those languages is to create a good fallback solution and usually they fallback to default. If that is empty hmm than it is an empty fallback. Better woudl be able to define the default language per page recursively. Also to define the order of language tabs so that the first tab always represents the main fallback language. ---- 1. Yes I can set that element. Take as example the minimal site profile which is multilingual. English, German, Finnish When you click home the URL is http://domain.tld/ like it should be but when you click on About already the /en/ element gets inserted I take out the /en/ from Settings and the URLs look correct without language specified. German and fiinish at the language segment already on the home page like it shoudl be if they are not a default language. 2. now I want to change that the default language is actually German - shown without segment and that the English Language is showing /en/ instead. 2.1. I change the guest user to be German and than do Version 1: I insert again the /en/ element in settings and I delete the /de/ element http://domain.tld/en/about/ shows English but when I now change the language to Geman it stays English - everything gets directed to http://domain.tld/en/about/ it is simply not possible to leave the German language path empty as after save the one from default language gets inserted here bu default which is /en/ Version 2: I move the German content to the default Language and the English Content to the actually German Tab in the backend but call it /en/ in the path segment and leave the Default without an element. This works but now I have the problem in the backend as it shows here the wrong namings and still the translatable files are at the wrong place, which means default still shows o translatable files while the former German but now renamed English and /en/ pathsegment Tb shows all files translated into German. -> It is cosmetic but it is unnecessarily confusing. We have three Langauge tabs in Backend Languages - in that profile original it is English - German - Finnish ( 1-2-3 ) (numbers show the Tab position) A Default is titled now 1-Deutsch 2-German 3-Saksan (before 1-English) B German is titled now 1-Englissh 2-English 3-Englanti (before 1-German) When I now go to user Settings I need to choose English to get a German backend and I have to choose German to get my backend in English. I assume that also all terms of the frontend have NOT changed i.e. if you have a translation to German - Anmeldung and English - Registration. Only if I now would switch those German Translatin Files to be the default translation than the frontend would work also with German terms from translation files. But when I switch than I will losse the English translation like written already and it was suggested to insert than again the English translation but there isn't one available separately. --- What would be the better - the logical way: You define the default language in a page and than it works recursevly down the branch until you change it again perhaps inside a branch. Probably it would even be possible to define and sort the languages in that top page and than theTabs show up in that order. Now you would be able to define even several different languages as default in a multidomain site (one Database). The frontend would get called in the defined language in the root-page of a branch/site while the backend would be called by the user defined language. --- It is not logical to click actually on Deutsch to get your English translation in the backend and to click on English to get your Backend translated to German. Like I said it might be only cosmetic and if you know it you could do but I think it is not at all only cosmetic as also terms from the frontend could be translated and than a German website woudl show English (default) Terms to - which is not good. Thanks for your input and ideas!

hi pete There are 4 Threads talking about the same stuff and that is why it is usefull to link them to one of those threads and actually to close those other Threads. This is a job for a Forum Admin or Moderator than only one Thread would exist and not four. If only one thread exists or if all threads which open up the Theme again would go to the same first thread discussions can stay together and be fruitful instead of having to search for solutions in lots of same threads. It is not at all spamming! it is helping people to find a solution. do your job as admin and this won't be necessary!

Yes christophe you are absolutly right and I read it but since than absolutely nothing has happened beside the fact that you now can list all translateable files in the backend. Unfortunately this is only usefull for local translation stuff, which means for a soecific translation for one specific customer i.e. He wants to call a specif term with another word that his customer wishes to have, But for real good and especially for translations in a professional style Pootle is the cheapest and best solution IMHO. We use it at TYPO3 since several years now. also here they had another solution before which did not have all those benefits from a collaborative tool like Pootle. After your post on page 1 you can see already people posting that they are interested to help and for sure there will be many more if Pootle gets installed for that translation purposes. The problem right now is that lots of terms inside those php files are still hard translated which is not usable at all for a multilingual CMF. Therefore I suggested already to introduce localization files. Those could be xml / xlf and are very easy to translate and to use in the php files too. Until now there isn't actually not such a huge amount - in comparison i.e. What we have at TYPO3 - what would need to be traslated and what would need to be modified so that a localized translation file gets used. it could even be a continouus process similar to what we did at TYPO3 where also lots of stuff was originally spread all over inside the PHP in other php files in xml etc. This chaos ended with Pootle and since than also the number of people contributing to the translations increased as everybody can see and suggest. What would be needed. 1 setting up pootle on a server. We could do that, and get http://translation.processwire.com connected to that installation. IMHO it is good to keep stuff at processwire.com. 2 the core would need to be modified so that it will use separate translatable files for each language. 3 those files can than be translated as a collaborated work on Pootle http://translation.processwire.com 4 the same you could start in parallel with all modules. 5 finally all translatable files would be accessible on http://translation.processwire.com and everybody could check the current state and contribute to it either as a suggestion or as a team member 6 we would organize translation teams in processwire. i am pretty sure that we will find enough people to manage and review those translations and building localisation teams. With Pootle i.e. i would build up a team hee to get Processwire running 100% in Thai and I am pretty sure that my friend in Hongkong would help translate it to Kantonese and I have someone who could do the same for vietnamese and Chinese and probably even Italian and other languages. I am living here on a multicultural and multilingual innovation Paradise Island (phuket) and lots of IT profs and those who like to be one are here working legally and many illegally from here, or bali (Indonesia). This all will happen as soon as a Pootle installation would be available with the first translatable files of Processwire. 7 translating processwire is also a great way to make it more accessible to people who don't speak or can't read English Language. Even many think that English is the Lingua Franca we should not underestimate that far more people not even can read English letters!!! And among them are great developers! As there languages are pretty much organized like a programming language. I.e. With some Indian Langauges exactly this is the case. I see no problem to get the following Languages organised and up and running in Translation Teams Russian - see page No. 1 French - see page No. 1 German - there is already a great team - without good collaborative tool Thai - we will do that here Kantonese - friend in Hongkong also TYPO3/DRUPAL/ODOO/PROCESSWIRE Web agency With the following we can help to get it running due to our connections and the interest in Processwire Chinese simple Vietnamese Khmer Vietnamese Bahsa Indonesian Burmese Some indian languages Spanish - i read that there was also somebody already willing to help ... ... The only thing what would be needed is a collaborative Tool! And Pootle is simply the best as you know what is going on, because you are managing it yourself and the system itself is free - well it needs some server space but this is not at all a problem! By the way usually than you will have even an swiss or austrian translation team beside the German one as some terms are simply (very) different in swiss German etc. with pootle that is absolutly no problem. If than anybody would like to have his special terms in a soecific site, than we can modify the already integrated tool in the backend which lists all those language files and he can customize his terms for a specific site but even than won't loose the possibility to update all his languages any time when core or a module gets updated. The update mechanisms integrated in the great module Manager would need to be modified to take care of that. In other words at any time something gets updated you also would get the newest versions of your translated files which fit to the module. Very good in Pootle is that you can build up a standardized Terminlogy and even Specify terms which should not get translated i.e. Processwire itself the name. Have a look to the http://translation.typo3.org and check out the features. You can see the number of terms which would need to get translated. a progressbar shows you with one view where help is needed. Our interns i.e. Have to work on those translations all the time when they have nothing else to do. Works just perfect and keeps them away from destructing things like facebook. And they are actually even proud and happy to make it accessible for the thai people. Perhaps some know say again that they should learn English - well they are doing that but as you can't tell all non programers and visitors of a website to learn English first we have to translate the terms into their languages. The translations cover frontend and backend translations. A standardized terminology will help also to automate some stuff in templates you have to set up, so that they pull the right language and no translation of terms would be needed in template files. If than still some insist to do all locally and are not willing to collaborate than it is their problem and they can still do that without harming the progress of processwire translation teams. Let me know when we can start, Please! By the way if you want to keep everything the json way than there is also way with Pootle As Pootle does not allow Json files you could modify yor local version of Pootle to read JSON files - I won't do that as it will increase workload in maintaining the installation. The better way to use a conversion tool to po files instead and convert the translations back to Json later This process of coverting the po files back to json files could be done while importing and updating translations to processwire. The converter which is doing both ways is already existing as GNU GPL2 and therefore integratable into Processwire. http://translate-toolkit.readthedocs.org/en/latest/commands/json2po.html json2po [options] <json> <po> this would be needed if a new module gets uploaded to the translation server po2json [options] -t <json> <po> <json> this would be needed to import the translated PO files into any processwire installation around the world. I am pretty sure that Nicos tool could be adjusted to import those files correctly including the conversion back from po to json files. Those sceptical could try out the translation tool with some existing files and check! The process would be like follow: The developer is creating his module on his local machine Like said earlier it woudl be great to have a place to gather all those developments i.e. http://forge.processwie.com which would be connected to a git repository From there there could be language requests and than a module language file gets uploaded to pootle or this repository would get scanned regularly for new language files. Those language files get converted into po files and then be usable for translation in Pootle All translation files get stored and managed there If a new translation gets added to a processwire installation anywhere in the world the (adjusted) language import tool what nico has build would pull a new translation from Pootle - converting the files back from po to json and uploading them to the right place in that local installation. If now a new translation gets added or an existing gets modified there need to be a tool - could be again the one of Nico or the module manager and upgrade manager, which actually checks regularly with the updates made on Pootle. If there is a new one available it woudl suggest to download that new translation and /or even would show what has been changed or added. Using the build in translation manager the site owners or admins ould still be able to adjust the translations to individual needs. Perhaps it would be good to name those modified files than a bit different and check if such a modified is existing and if not the default (the one downloaded from pootle) gets used. Terms modified in the locally modified file would overwrite those downloaded from pootle but not destroying them. This would reduce the workload for many of us who have to deal with multilingual sites all the time and would still enable people to use individual terms too.

I thought about perhaps reusing the TYPO3 static_info_table (and there are several other tables for other purposes like taxes airports etc - and they get maintained by them quite good. https://forge.typo3.org/projects/extension-static_info_tables https://github.com/typo3-ter/static_info_tables https://github.com/typo3-ter/static_info_tables/blob/master/ext_tables_static%2Badt.sql

What exactly do you want to say? 1. I set the guest to be German and than the URL will show / instead of /de/ 2. What happens to the de-de language files? It is quite confusing to have in the backend a default language which is German but 0 translatable files show in that column when clicking on default and additional you have de-DE in the second Tab with all German translatable files. but the second tab should be English and not German again. 3. Also I personally like to keep my processwire in English language in the backend even in the Frontend German should be the default Could you please explain the steps a bit clearer Thanks!

It is not atall an overhead as not needed translation simple does not get loaded - like itis at TYPO3. Only translatins really needed and only from those modules installed gets loaded and also here you can translate the files afterwards inside the backend and still can do individual smaller adjustments which even stay when you update all the rest of your files. There are 2 major problems with translations: 1. You need to keep translations updated with the core and module files, which means this is not a one time job! 2. Translating stuff takes a lot of time, so it is nonsense to waste time in doing that job over and over again for each site of all developers who develop a site in the same language with processwire. Have a look to how it is done in a professinal way! https://processwire.com/talk/topic/3317-get-localization/?p=79537 and check out Pootle - it would make things so much easier for all of us!

Well this does not help much, as this translation tool does not allow you to collaborate and share translations for hundreds of sites. i.e. working on an installatin for 400 churches would mean you need to translate it 400 times - This is complete nonsese as it is redundant work. And with each update you would need to adjust all those 400 translations again in the same manor. "Arbeitsbeschaffungsmassnahme" we say in Germany. I guess we all have much better things to do as repeating this task over and over again. If you now have also several other projects in parallel running you would need to getalso those idividually up and running. They probably use different modules. The translation tool in core is a great access to make small tiny adjustments for a specific customer and his very specific needs. Much better would be to have a centralized translation server like I already suggested here: https://processwire.com/talk/topic/3317-get-localization/?p=79537 This would reduce the workload for each other here in the community as we would be able to collaborate. OK for the next release probably the english language would need to be extracted to but right now this is still a feasable job as the core isn't so big and there are only about 250 modules right now.

By Processwire default the Installation is always in English. As Ryan said earlier: To install a new language pack withNicos Module is easy buthow to get it running as Default. And where actually do you get the default ENGLISH files as if you exchange the default files English will be gine. It is even one when you change the name and title to something else than default. IMHO there need to be a way to switch to a default language with / much easier. All the tutorials - which are great - unfortunately keep the default Lingua Franca = English. i.e. can somebody perhaps point to a tutorial how to setup German, or any other language than English as Default Language and how to get as second Language English running without having to disable the default Language field or moving files from German to be default? This is absolutly not developer Friendly as it costs a lot of time and bears the danger that things get lost or modified at the wrong place. IMHO Nicos approach with uploading the translations in a one tep process is a good way but as said the English translation is missing! Also it does not seem to be possible to upload a language file again i.e. for updating as translations usually change with every version. It would be great if this Tutorial here http://processwire.com/api/multi-language-support/ would point out into the right direction if you are not inteded to use English as default language but still need English as another Language. Thanks

Have a look here https://processwire.com/talk/topic/3317-get-localization/?p=79537 I think that way woudl help Processwire a lot and would reduce the workload for each one of us here too as we woudl be able to collaborate and benefit from a mmuch more and better translatable processwire. One way woudl be to upload all those files to Pootle but much better woudl be to start keeping translations in a separate file.

That is still way to complicated and has the problem that things get wrong and your sites will be probably gone to. Translating all those files manually on your specific server does not make much sense. This is usable for tiny customizations for a specific customer but IMHO most of the translation work needs to be done with a professional tool wher community members can collaborate and where there is some kind of standard Terminlogy and supervision for each Language too. Thanks for the script Nico but ufff it looks more like a chaos doing it that in such a none shareable way! Some Developers already complain that new ideas might bring to much work and more effort in maintaining things so IMHO Pootle would be the way to go! https://processwire.com/talk/topic/3317-get-localization/?p=79537

Much better would be to use a professinal tool for translatins and keeping the language files separate. https://processwire.com/talk/topic/3317-get-localization/?p=79537

The logo is actually no problem to be replaced as in every Installation at the button you have the current Version Information too. ProcessWire 2.5.7 dev © 2014 Removing the top logo enables also Agencies to build up some CI for themselves which helps to sell stuff for them to. Like Nico said the color chooser is definetly the better choice. Why actually does it need to be installed in his module's files should be placed in /site/modules/AlternativeGridImages/ as this makes installation more complicated that it shoudl be. With the Module uploader you can't choose the folder where to upload a submodule or this featre has to be added to the Core Module uploader. (Path Chooser) IMHO this is not necessary if all Modules start with their path from module-ROOT

I would like to recommend POOTLE http://pootle.translatehouse.org/?id=pootle/index Simply setup a subdomain http://translation.processwire.com install pootle here invite the complete community to help translating all files in the core and modules. It is a real community approach and it ensures high quality to. and it is very easy to handle! If you want to see how this looks like on a professional enterprise CMS than check it out here: http://translation.typo3.org/ add your own 2 letter language code and directly you get to your language. You can see immediately what translations are still needed. i.e. http://wiki.typo3.org/Translation#Using_Pootle here you can find a short tutorial and description on how to use Pootle. To make cooperation easier there is a Translation Terminology Project which ensures that things get named constantly the same way when building extensions. Standardization of the Translation you could call it! Setup a Team Page where you can inform about Teams and their members which do those translations or which actually manage also the access and ensure that translations get reviewed. http://wiki.typo3.org/Thai-Translation-Team We translated TYPO3 4.5 LTS 100% in 2010 but since than as you can see lots of words have already changed again in the core so we are working on the translation of TYPO3 6.2 LTS now. http://translation.typo3.org/th/ usually we do this with our Interns. It would be nice to see Processwire also in Thai Language. But translating it in the way you are doing it right now is a real hazzle and takes lots of time and does not at all allow collaboration. I think you could learn a lot from how TYPO3 is utilizing Pootle for all translations. Beside this the translations of Modules and core get loaded separately after installation. They also get updated from within TYPO3 which for sure would be also possible inside Processwire as you can update core and modules already why not also translations. As all translation files get stored on the translation server, the modules with their english default language file (some provide already some other languages from start) are kept free from not needed ballast. Best would beactually to make it a rule that all modules need to have the default in English like the core and that all other translations get stored and managed on Pootle. --- And it is getting even better with the upcoming release http://docs.translatehouse.org/projects/pootle/en/latest/developers/roadmap.html --- In General I would recommend to keep all language translations in a separate file. This usually also reduces hard coded stuff as developer get used to use translatable variables instead as also the default English Language would be in a separate file. site/module/abcdefgh/abcdefgh.module site/module/abcdefgh/locallang.xml site/l10n/de/abcdefgh/locallang.xlf site/l10n/de/abcdefgh/locallang.xml

The fundament is already there It is circleFlip! IMHO it is a very good starting point without the need to reinvent wheels and waste thoughts on things which already work the right and the best way in there and it is a working examples but with all those limitations of wordpress which won't exist in Processwire ;-). This theme has actually everything what is needed - even a cart and it has all parts as modules already existing in Processwire beside the website builder and BLOCKS - ok there is a proof of concept module in Processwire. The base of circleFip is simply fantastic! Bootstrap, Mobile first approach, Webnsite Builder, lots of already existing variations, even a One page Template. Andi

Hi pideluxe You really should take your customers and test out some of those examples here and awaitthere reactions. We did it and do it regularly actually! https://demo2.odoo.com/ go to "website" in the upper menu. Than choose from "Help" (Top Menue to the right) what you would like to do - create a page etc. It is fun and until now all our customers really like that, but only a few will be able to run it on their hosting spaces unfortunately. And it has also some drawbacks i.e. how it manages the digital content IMHO a bit chaotic - like Processwire withot Image manager or Gallery Module https://www.odoo.com/page/start go here fill in some name and up you go. Start building your website. You will be able to have a nice looking design even in front of yor customers eyes Another great example: http://themes.creiden.com/?theme=Circleflip scroll down to the bottom and choose demo access demo:demo Have a look also to their documentation which shows how userfriendly documentatins could be http://docs.creiden.com/circleflip/ http://t3bootstraptv.de/de/typo3-bootstrap/ http://t3bootstrap.de/de/typo3-bootstrap-template/ http://www.t3sbootstrap.de/t3sbootstrap/ Well our experience is just the opposite. really just the opposite. Of course yo can dictate your users what they are allowed and what not - dictator CMS but this would stop the process for the customer which keeps things running because they are wired the right way to gether. I met lots of so called "experts" and they failed as they left the customers alone after they gave them the website. So justafter a few days new updates or even security updates came out and the customer had no idea how to handle that so he left things as is until his site was gone ;-) - Than he came to us and first really wondered why we taugt him how to handle those jobs. He is our customer since nearly 10 years meanwhile and he is only one of those examples out there. Meanwhile he manages his own SEO, he is good!, and he is master of his system and his content and happy about that. Nevertheless is he coming back every year to learn more and sometimes also to learna new system but than see that the former one is better for his needs as he is the master of ceremony. But also him fascinated Processwire like many others and they would immediately start using it when it would come with some better usability for END Users which is NOT the same as for Developers or Designers or Integrators or Site Builders etc. You have a very traditional client here I guess. well try out those website Builders or try out omne of those TYPO3 sites in the Backend or the Framework for TemplaVoila. Here you can decide very flexible to add or reduce columns, or to change the width of columns by drag and drop. You can move ELements to another column etc. You can work with Nested columns by drag and drop. Customers reallylike that new way of a creative website where they can decide by themselves how the site actually looks like. Meanwhile most customers demand one of our "no design" "Themes - well it is basically blank" and than they start designing it with images and text and dropcaps etc reaclly nice - and it is THEIRS!! They did it, we only provided them the right toolset to achive their goals to be Master of Ceremony! Andi

What I think is wrong with these conversations that keep coming up is that rather than someone proposing a module that does what they want and either building it or getting people around them to build it, they leap in and demand that the ProcessWire developers should drop what they are doing and change ProcessWire to suit their needs. ------ The part in Bold is assuming things which are absolutly NOT true! It is sad Joss, that you interpret things constantly in the wrong way. There have been now several threads about the same problematic and it is always the same people who try to block a development into a more EndUser Friedly direction, or a development of a more module APPS which bring in ready and easy to use solutions. No one hinders you to use Processwire still the way you were using it all the time. Build everything from scratch. But I see a huge community in here at Processwire with very clever people in it like Nico, Apeisa, Kongodo, .... who like to get things done. The easy and clever way! Read the comments to their modules! WOW they are really great and this is also what it should be. A great piece of a software application. Who has said that Joss? I am sure nobody! In a well functionig Open Source community their you will have always people who can code, others who can design, another who can integrate like you, and again others who are great in writing tutorials or as trainers or editors etc. Many different Talents can come together and bring in their ideas and finally probably there will be a or more develper who does the programming, someone who does the design and again others who start writing tutorials etc. All together contribute and share their talents with others! Inspire to share! In all those discussions NO ONE!!! really no one said that the core needs to be touched to achieve that but you always assume it with your posts. Why? When you bring up that discussion to exactly that point you are actually trying to kill it, this is very sad! Why don't you let people discuss those things without those destructive comments! De facto you are right in one point. We need to discuss this in seperate threads as all those threads actually about usability have been turned over by those blocking comments towards a philosophy discussion. The same happened here! - > Reason: Those Threads and even the one I started here gave you actually the chance to put in your "They touch the core" fear discussion. You really need to be much more open for new statements and ideas. Take i.e. TYPO3 as an example of a Content manegenenbt Framework which started pretty much the same way like Processwire. There was ONE single developer who had put all his ideas into that system and than he published it as Open Source Software. "God has given me talents to share the stuff what I produce with all this talents with others who don not have such talents. Inspire to share - or Joh3.16 - Check out the Bible! This Inspire to share idea was so manifested that even the default install tool password was joh316!!! -- I started with that community in 2002 and grew with it. Some grew even faster and some of those actually tried to fly high and tried that TYPO3 stays according to their specific needs which ended in a disaster! as many many people left! To summarize what has been said so far in all those Threads: A. NO PROCESSWIRE CORE WILL BE ENRICHED WITH A BUILD IN WEBSITE BUILDER OR ANY OTHER BALLAST!! Please simply except this finally and don't try to lead the discussions about userfriendliness always again towards this discussion that the processwire core gets blown up and that it is not maintainable and getting to complex etc. This is - sorry I have really to say this - it is bullshit if you rad through all those arguments the people alone since June 2014 brought in about a discussion about a more EnD User Friendly system Please except that the Processwire core won't be touched at all! stop trying to create that fear! But there was always the fear that actually the processwire gets touched to HINDER such a development, for whatever reason. Similar to what happened with TemplaVoila at TYPO3! With every update of the core TemplaVoila got problems because the core devs changed stuff so that everyine who had a TemplaVola site got problems, and even only little ones. I hope that stupid game won't happen if the website builder gets to much attention by the public and Processwire Packages with the Blog, the gallery the SEO, the comments Module and the Website Builder Module with which people can drag and rop their blocks and designs together, when this is getting very popular. I hope that the core will still make these things possible and does not try to stop developments into that direction. Actually Processwire is predestined for a website builder due to the fact that it already is using that great API . If it will be a free Module or a Module like Ryans Pro Modules we will see and is also depending on the support and funds we will receive and will be able to create from i.e. our customers. A demand is already there! ------ B. There is absolutly NO NEED to split things concerning the core development as long as the core stays as is and comforts and does not block both mainstreams. To make it easier it would be nice if the one who is maintaining the Forum could build up a section for WEB-Applications (Websites etc) and another for (All other kind of Apps which are not at all webrelated but can be buidl with processwire) In the WEB-Application section I woudl like to see a subsection about USABILITY here we can discuss about building up some standards, nameing conventions which will make things much easier to share things later on. here we will have a Thread about THEMES - probably there are already some out which we coudl use to start with, beside those of the main installations which actually already use all some standards and conventions. After that section has been setup I will also open up a separate Thread about the website builder module. Yes Joss we will look deeper into it and we will try to motivate others to contribute to that ideas. I am pretty sure that with good teamwork also a good result will be there at the end. This section about the website builder Module will be about the module and its functionality and NOT about if it shoudl be build or not! or why the hell it would be not good to build it etc. If you want to discuss things in that direction than use please another thread. Here are some of the other Thread where the USABILITY got discussed in a pretty much similar direction - with always same results actually. https://processwire.com/talk/topic/7565-making-pw-more-userfriendly/ https://processwire.com/talk/topic/7168-thoughts-after-2-years-of-marriage/#entry68929 NorbertH had originally listed a pretty good list: Most of it is already there but some of it only needs to be put into the right and nicer looking and into a more ergonomical workflow order. I hope Kongodos Gallry Module makes progress as it would be a great enhancment to that prebuild profile with ready to use and preconfigured modules. The Part which needs improvement is actually mostly only the templating stuff because we need to think about some basic standards and naming conventions and thats it. Using Bootstrap 3 with Less (AIOM) Module combined with the SEO Module and a usable Frontend User Management System and the complete Templating Part could already start to make all kind of templates and has as background the same system constellation. If that constellation does not fit the specific needs that there will be a way always to enhance or to reduce functionality. Blog/News - Commenting System with optional Rating Polling (optional) Gallery Module to manage all images, even better if that could integrate with cloudspaces like dropbox, flickr, picasa, etc ... AIOM SEO Basic Forum Contact Form Newsletter Shop (Cart) Frontend User Management Booking Module (Formbuilder ;-)) Caching (ProCache) ... All this is actually already existing and a great base for most of all websites basic needs. Let' start with thatand try to normalize and standardize some Templates so that they are interchangable and in parallel integrate a website builder and of course inline editing in front and backend! Don't discuss thatnow here but keep yor ideas for the new Thread. I hope someone will be able to start new sections! Thanks and have a nice weekend! And Joss - just saw your newly answers - for sure there will be enough support to handle it when more people demand Processwire. TYPO3 has meanwhile a security team and many other teams, a great community, lots of people who contribute and are willing to do jobs like that - security testing, writing tutorials etc - the more people will demand processwire the more people will also be available to maintain core and especially modules. And probably even Ryan is not sad to get some more Jobs! of course all others too.