PW ecosystem in the future

[ryan]

That's good to hear, I wasn't aware of that. I just remember using C5 and seeing scalability concerns and client support nightmares all over the place. But that was awhile ago. Based on how they are growing, I think their business model is one we can learn from, especially with regard to the marketplace they have there.

[AnotherAndrew]

In reference to Concrete5:

But I agree about their marketplace is a great model and one that we need to look into more.

No! Don't go that way of developing commercial code. I have used C5 for awhile and in my opinion, the community support has gone downhill since they opened up to commercial interests. Now everyone just wants to make a buck. Look at their marketplace and there are fewer and fewer "free" modules/plugins/add-ons. (I might add that I am currently converting a C5 site to PW, since I find PW to be easier to understand for a client)

I think that PW should go the route of Wordpress, at least in terms of their website. There are commercial wordpress solutions but they are not advertised on wordpress.org.

Please keep PW truly open source and free of commercial gains.

[Crash-n-Burn]

We're all trying to make a buck, we have rent to pay.

[apeisa]

While I would surely like free and open source modules that wp and Drupal offers, I would rather pay and get support directly from the company or individual who created the module. I think it depends on the project scope pretty much on which way you prefer.

[ryan]

Please keep PW truly open source and free of commercial gains.

Nobody's said anything about making PW commercial. It is a "truly" open source project in every way possible and that's not going to change. I don't want any implication of anything other than that. I don't personally have any commercial aspirations with ProcessWire. My interests are in helping it to grow as an open source project and meeting the needs of the community.

I'm not here to make a buck. People don't get into open source for the money (there's no money in it). Instead, I'm here to put money and time in it – I saved for a few years to pay for the time it took to make ProcessWire as an open source project. I did it for the same reason that one would invest a lot of time and money building model airplanes or trains… it's what I enjoy doing. Especially now that there's so many of us. I find the work and community here hugely rewarding, surpassing anything I could have ever been paid.

There's no expectation of making money here. But now that we've got a dedicated community, I do think we've got a responsibility to chart a path forward for growth so that the product can grow with the community and continue to meet their needs. My financial resources are not unlimited and I've got a family to feed. I can do that by taking on more client work, and just work on PW on my spare time. But my preference would be to find a way to make ProcessWire self-sustaining, so that it can grow on it's own funds more than mine. I'd also like for myself and others to be able to afford to put more and more time towards it. Actually, I'm determined to put more time towards it even if it means going without sleep.

While I'm not sure if it's the right path or not, I do like aspects of the idea of having options for commercial modules. I think it could help us to attract high-profile and mission critical websites, and service-oriented module developers that can bring more exposure to ProcessWire… increase its audience and help it grow. I also think that providing a centralized gateway for modules (free and commercial) serves our community a lot better than the alternative. Whether anyone will actually build any commercial modules remains to be seen, but I'd like to encourage high quality 3rd party module development, free and commercial. I have no problem if someone wants to make a buck on creating a commercial module, so long as they make it good and support it well. If we don't serve as a gateway for this stuff, then we have no means of effecting the quality and service to our community. Perhaps C5 is making some mistakes in the manner in which they are doing this, and it would be good for us to study what they are doing right and wrong. If its really hurt their community there, and that's a widely held opinion, then that would be a good reason not to use them as a potential model.

I like Symphony's model of making commercial support options available. I think this is another thing that attracts high-profile and mission critical websites, while also supporting development of the CMS. Though I have no idea if it's been successful for them or not.

I think that PW should go the route of Wordpress, at least in terms of their website. There are commercial wordpress solutions but they are not advertised on wordpress.org.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the WordPress business model is primarily centered around hosting. I'm not sure this model translates to ProcessWire very well, because our audience is more web-professionals than bloggers and writers.

It would be interesting to know more about why WordPress supports commercial themes but not commercial plugins. I am wondering if their plugin system is such that anything built on it has to be GPL. Whereas ProcessWire's templates and modules are using the same interfaces and API.

What are other ways that WordPress or other open source CMS projects are growing in a self sustainable way? Some other ideas are books, commercial tutorials and training (videos or in-person), commercial site-profiles (ready-to-go school website, or the like), custom module development (for individuals), selling advertising (though not very interested in this), coffee mugs and t-shirts.  Please throw some more ideas into this if you have them. Ultimately if the community isn't supportive of any specific business-models, then we'll throw the ideas out because the project will grow and move forward either way. But I'd like to get to the point of being able to put more and more time towards the project, so just looking for ways to do more PW work and less client work.

[MarcC]

Things I would pay for, in order of likely payment output:

Ready-to-go commercial site profiles (setting up separate templates for different sections and whatnot is a bit of a time suck right now) $$$$

This would be so terrific. Here, look, a product database that provides XML feeds and tagging is already set up, too. Hey, there's a PW site with a membership system with a customizable profile for each member! This would be worth tons to people like me.

Training materials $$$

    Videos $$$ I guess the subject matter would be pretty wide open but a set of PW videos where 1-3, for free, cover setting up a single HTML page into an editable site, and 3-9 cover additional pages and some other features, for a cost...I think lots would be interested. Don't give away the sunroof but it's an awesome car.

    Books (short as they may be, not looking for the bible of PW here) $$$ At this point I would love something on developing modules for PW, with a few examples. Also an example of CodeIgniter integration, for doing more app-type stuff, this really interests me right now. I can't name a specific example I'd like to see, but as a PHP junior-level type, I'd love to see how PW can help me work with a framework like CI or Symphony. This could be a video too, I'd pay for that.

Custom module development $$$ Name your rate, and don't price it so low that you can't sustain it. I think a lot of us will find a way to pay if we need it and really love to see that type of backing available. It's a bit intimidating to ask somebody in your position to bid on a custom development job though (don't want to bug ya), so you'd probably want to put up a page somewhere explaining that yes, you will do it and what your terms are, etc.

Commercial support $$

Very helpful for some perhaps, but I don't see myself using it much for now. Maybe if I'm scaling up dramatically or working with a big team and needing some insurance.

Add-on modules $

I've been stung several times by paying for modules. Support can end up being very poor or hard to understand, or the new version comes out with a more sustainable codebase but 25% of the features of the old one, or the developer becomes a playwright, etc. So I'm cautious about that stuff but I readily admit it's nice to have the option.

But I'd like to get to the point of being able to put more and more time towards the project, so just looking for ways to do more PW work and less client work.

I'd like to support you in that. You deserve it.

[ryan]

Great feedback, thanks Maruchan! It's interesting to see that ready-to-go site profiles and training materials are your top two. Both of these appeal to me a lot, definitely something to think about more. I might have to test the waters with a ready-to-go site profile to gauge interest. Beyond those that you mentioned, are there any other ready-to-go site profiles that you think there would be good demand for?

With regard to books, I'd love to have two "abookapart" sized/styled ProcessWire books: one for developers, and one as a user guide that we can provide to our clients after building a site for them. Though even if not full-blown references manuals, such books would take serious time and resources to create. But I've got two things working for me on that front: my brother designs books and my dad owns a book publishing company. I'm going to have a little chat with them this weekend. However, with family in the book publishing industry, I'm well aware that one does it for the love and not the money... most books lose money. Still, I think ProcessWire book(s) might do well, so I'm going to find out how much it'll cost for the production.

[MarcC]

Beyond those that you mentioned' date=' are there any other ready-to-go site profiles that you think there would be good demand for?[/quote']

In general, two types come to mind: 1) Ready-to-go sites and 2) ready-to-go site sections or features, the latter allowing existing sites to add these features. Brain dump:

News sites (small, local news organizations, e.g. http://theava.com/)

Ad and Coupon management

Data charting with (insert jQuery or PHP charting lib here).

Tumblr-type sites (mainly playing on the name and popularity)

Client dashboard (simple article editing and e.g. web stats display via Piwik API for simple sites--don't have to teach clients the PW or Piwik interface)

Generic data API (out of my depth but thinking about web views inside of proprietary mobile and desktop apps)

Support desk / ticket system for web developers

Billing / invoice manager

Calendars

Forms (unique as they may need to be, with file upload, etc.)

Fancy menu systems

Other ideas: See for example the most popular products at CodeCanyon... http://codecanyon.net/popular_item/by_category?category=php-scripts

The advantage that ProcessWire offers is its extremely flexible approach with a focus on DIY markup, or markup that is easy to customize. Insofar as these products could cling to that ideal, I would think they'd be a great success.

There would probably be the issue of framing the sell, so that visitors don't feel like they're being funneled toward a proprietary software purchase. You could make this all lump subscription-based, with different tiers that include different levels of benefits. So, for example, forum user KennyG has a little badge under his name that says "Gold Supporter," and you can click it to find out that he pays $50/yr. for access to extra support forums, up to three categories of software downloads, and an eBook copy of "The Zen of ProcessWire." Or MaceoP is an Enterprise-level supporter who pays $1500/yr. for access to the ProcessWire Enterprise Professionals forum, a free ProcessWire coffee mug and T-shirt, and a spiral-bound, in-depth API guide with deeper examples and tips on integration with other software or services.

Just an idea, but it's framed more along the lines of "support your local NPR station" than "come shop at the software store."

I'd love to have two "abookapart" sized/styled ProcessWire books

Ha, that's exactly what I was thinking of, too.

Another idea, depending on interest in other development arenas: Sell an "official" PW iOS app that contains API docs + examples and any other handy stuff. I have a lot of those apps for e.g. PHP, jQuery, Vim, etc. and such a purchase would be a no-brainer, especially knowing that it's supporting the project. Inclusion of some longer tutorials would make it easy to justify a higher cost for such an app.

[Crash-n-Burn]

We'd definitely be interested in a book, especially if it came with an e-book/pdf license/download (that might get updated over the course of the year after printing).

A fair chunk of the content of such could be pulled from existing documentation on ProcessWire, and questions/answers on the forum. With the two formats, you have the best of both worlds: physical copy that you can read/annotate/use apart from your computer (or e-reader) and a digital copy that you can copy/paste source examples from.

[ryan]

Thanks for all of your feedback. Great ideas Maruchan! Based on our conversation here, I'm now feeling that perhaps we should test the waters first with a ready-to-go site profile. I'm going to do more thinking here over the holidays and try to identify some areas of need that might be good to pursue.

[onjegolders]

Just been reading this article and apart from wanting to applaud your enthusiasm and integrity, two points struck me in particular:

Think MarcC's ideas of site profiles could appeal to large amounts of people. As a reasonably fresh-to-web designer, I love the control Processwire gives to me and my markup, the thought of having to use Joomla or Wordpress would fill me with dread.

I am very aware however that although almost anything is buildable in PW, I couldn't build it. My brother who uses Joomla, often asks me what will happen when I need to set up a forum or a social network or a shopping cart. I would love to be able to build all this myself and as a firm believer in DIY code, I think it would be a cleaner solution but I just wouldn't have the expertise to pull it off - I do believe, however, there are one or two devs in this community who could make some really excellent profiles, which I would gladly pay for (and to which you should take a cut sir!)

This sort of brings me to my other point.

Let there be commercial addons (profiles) but let them be for very specific non-core functionality.

In EE, the addons are generally terrific and I had no problem paying for Firemail (a newsletter system), or CartThrob as an example but it really hurts to have to fork out money for addons that you just know should be part of the core. They all add up.

If I can handcraft a great site with PW knowing that if I need a large bit of expert functionality further on down the line, like a shop or a forum, I'd happily fork some money for it, as it would mean I wouldn't have to consider moving to the dark side (mentioning no names )

[ryan]

Think MarcC's ideas of site profiles could appeal to large amounts of people.

I agree. I need to get one or two open source profiles available for download on the site before venturing into commercial profiles. But this is a very high priority, and I'm just trying to get enough time off work to do it.

I am very aware however that although almost anything is buildable in PW, I couldn't build it. My brother who uses Joomla, often asks me what will happen when I need to set up a forum or a social network or a shopping cart.

Hopefully he doesn't use Joomla for these things? If there's a real specific need, I'm usually inclined to use a tool dedicated to the task, regardless of what CMS you use. For instance we use IP.Board for the forum here and I use Shopify for a cart. However, with time there will be more dedicated options in PW for these things. Apeisa has already done a lot in this regard.

[biotech]

Howdy people,

Funny how I keeping coming across the threads of interest with the same crowd that is from EE background. I can share the same thoughts as onjegolders having been in EE shop for some years. The addons are great and freelance developers do great work but there are some fundamental addons that EL refuses to absorb into core (and I speculate) due to fact that they are running thin on support layer or perhaps in content with their earnings .

What also attracted me to EE is that I had 1 place to get help. Today, you have to depend on 1man crew developers and cross checks where the issues is coming from - the core or the addon. So my suggestion is to provide some means to your 'developers' to earn % and not want to go on their own because you can facilitate their earnings and get a small % for doing so. Keeping things centralized is the key to organized and controlled growth.Otherwise you will end up with dozens of abandoned and cheap plugins that frustrate users that depend on them...WordPress anyone?

The big addons/profiles that come to my mind are:

-shopping cart

-forums (some simple flavor of it...like Vanilla no pun intended) + forum bridges

-photo gallery

-LDAP connection (great for using this or any CMS within corporate intranets or SSO systems)

...the list can go on, I am sure plenty of users here can share their ideas.

PW is sitting on truly excising grounds because so many things have been done right in its lean core. It would be really nice to see Ryan and few other leading devs. get their rewards and financial freedom from 9-5 tasks since it will only lead to better system for us to use.

[onjegolders]

Howdy people,

Funny how I keeping coming across the threads of interest with the same crowd that is from EE background. I can share the same thoughts as onjegolders having been in EE shop for some years. The addons are great and freelance developers do great work but there are some fundamental addons that EL refuses to absorb into core (and I speculate) due to fact that they are running thin on support layer or perhaps in content with their earnings .

What also attracted me to EE is that I had 1 place to get help. Today, you have to depend on 1man crew developers and cross checks where the issues is coming from - the core or the addon. So my suggestion is to provide some means to your 'developers' to earn % and not want to go on their own because you can facilitate their earnings and get a small % for doing so. Keeping things centralized is the key to organized and controlled growth.Otherwise you will end up with dozens of abandoned and cheap plugins that frustrate users that depend on them...WordPress anyone?

The big addons/profiles that come to my mind are:

-shopping cart

-forums (some simple flavor of it...like Vanilla no pun intended) + forum bridges

-photo gallery

-LDAP connection (great for using this or any CMS within corporate intranets or SSO systems)

...the list can go on, I am sure plenty of users here can share their ideas.

PW is sitting on truly excising grounds because so many things have been done right in its lean core. It would be really nice to see Ryan and few other leading devs. get their rewards and financial freedom from 9-5 tasks since it will only lead to better system for us to use.

Yes.

[landitus]

I think Ryan has a point about having the need and the impulse of making PW better and more awesome now that there are more users and collaborators. I think it makes sense to look for ways to make money and keep the project healthy and going. I think books and tutorials are a good way to do it. I love buying books or screencasts to learn to code. It is also profitable on the community level. More people learn, develop, help, etc.

I would pay for advance add-ons and plugins. I agree with the caution mentioned in the posts above. I really appreciate that PW has in it's core a lot more features than Expression Engine. I just don't buy the whole EE ecosystem... too price, too obscure (I haven't found a solid non-cryptic tutorial about how to develop for it). Looks like their intentions are very focused on profit...

Core features in PW are already excellent. Of course I'd like more of them! The ecosystem part of PW should grow, with developers and designers (maybe a-la-codeigniter reactor??)

It would be a shame that because of lack of time and resources, the project would not move forward faster and stronger. The more Ryan and team focus time and efforts on PW, the better for everyone.

[formmailer]

-LDAP connection (great for using this or any CMS within corporate intranets or SSO systems)

FYI: There is already a LDAP module. Haven't tested it though....

http://processwire.com/talk/topic/971-ldap-auth-for-session-login/page__hl__ldap

/Jasper

[biotech]

Yap, I am one of the followers

Thanks Jasper.

[ryan]

It would be a shame that because of lack of time and resources, the project would not move forward faster and stronger. The more Ryan and team focus time and efforts on PW, the better for everyone.

Don't worry about lack of time or resources - I personally use ProcessWire on all my client projects, so it's something I've been working on steadily for many years and will continue to. My business depends on it! Sometimes I get blocks of time where I can focus on it a lot, and other times I have to focus more on my client projects, but PW always moves forward because I use it almost all day every day. Though something I'd like to be able to do is less client work and more ProcessWire work. One thought that crossed my mind is to maintain another version called ProcessWire Pro (or something like that) that would basically be the same but include faster support by e-mail and several of my modules that I use in commercial projects. It might also include a separate support board geared for your clients, so they would also have a support resource should they ever need/want it. I was thinking something like this might appeal to the EE crowd that is looking for the guaranteed support and services beyond the typical open source project. The audience here would be the web designer/developer that does this for a living and wants something extra that they can't currently get from PW or other open source projects. But that in turn would help to open up more time for the project as a whole. Not everyone needs or wants this, but it might be nice to offer it for those that do.