The new website makes it harder to convince clients to use ProcessWire

[MrSnoozles]

Hi all,

first of all I'm sorry this is going to sound a bit negative. But ever since the new website launched I feel like it's increasingly difficult to convince clients that have never heard of ProcessWire to use it. Have any of you experienced the same?

I'm not a designer, but I feel like the content and the design have been made to target developers. That's valid, but if our clients don't want to use the system, neither can we, at least professionally.

In my opinion at least the homepage would need a design and content overhaul to streamline the first impression and explain to non-techies why ProcessWire is awesome. 

Edited Thursday at 01:58 PM by MrSnoozles

[szabesz]

12 hours ago, MrSnoozles said:

the homepage would need a design and content overhaul

Recommended read:
https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2025/10/the-grayscale-problem/

Quote:

"Colour seems an appropriate place to start. When given the choice, try something audacious rather than safe. The worst that can happen is that it doesn’t work. It’s not like the sunk cost of painting a room; if you don’t like the palette, you simply change the hex codes. The same is true of fonts, icons, and other building blocks of the web."

[szabesz]

I burnt some credits on Seedream v4.
(BTW, Our grandchildren will surely ask us: Grandma, Grandpa, is it true that your image generators were so stupid back in your day?)

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[tires]

I disagree. As a designer and developer, I think the new design is much more professional, contemporary, and appropriate.

Compare it to the Dupal or WordPress website. Do you think they are better positioned? What information do you think is missing for customers?

[szabesz]

6 hours ago, tires said:

I disagree. As a designer and developer, I think the new design is much more professional, contemporary, and appropriate.

But there is one thing we can all agree on, and that is the new design is quite controversial.

And as far as I can tell, one either likes it a lot or does not like it a lot. And I don't think that such a controversial look is good in general.

As for being "contemporary"? I started my designer career in 1997 and back then everyone used QuarkXpress, Aldus Freehand, and Color Studio (later Photoshop 2.5+). Because Macs were not too powerful, most designs were put together in QuarkXpress only. Why am I bringing this up? Because the current processwire.com design does look like "QuarkXpress only designs" from about 1995-2002. For this reason, to me, this is vintage.

Edited Thursday at 06:26 AM by szabesz
typo: QuarkXpress

[MrSnoozles]

9 hours ago, tires said:

I disagree. As a designer and developer, I think the new design is much more professional, contemporary, and appropriate.

I don't disagree with that. Design is very subjective. While I don't understand why the headline is so massive (on a 4K screen), why texts are not aligned (see screenshot), and I don't like the boxes with the shadows and the box that has the "ProcessWire weekly" signup, I still understand that it's professionally made. The main point is that the content is IMO written more towards developers and less towards companies that have to choose a CMS for their next project.

I made a quick AI mockup of how I think it could be improved, highlighting the value for the business and developers, that with PW everything takes less time. And time is money. 

[szabesz]

50 minutes ago, MrSnoozles said:

headline is so massive (on a 4K screen), why texts are not aligned (see screenshot)

No to mention other issues like the following. On my 2560x1440 monitor, while scrolling, I get views like:

I guess I do not have to explain why this is far from ideal. Just a big bulge blob with a subscription form in it and that’s it? To whom does it look professional?

[FireWire]

On 11/5/2025 at 12:32 AM, MrSnoozles said:

But ever since the new website launched I feel like it's increasingly difficult to convince clients that have never heard of ProcessWire to use it. Have any of you experienced the same?

I don't want to be too blunt and I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never referred a client to a software or service website as part of the education process. It doesn't do anything for them. You are the expert. The person making the pitch should be able to fully explain the technology stack to the extent that the conversation requires it in language they can understand because we are the interpreters. Clients trust me because I am the expert and the top 3 things they care about are these, in this order:

1. How much is this going to cost me?
2. Why don't we use xxx? (or, our current site is xxx I'm not sure we want to switch)
3. When is it going to be done?

Sending a client to any site for tools or software is like saying "here, do your own research". The ProcessWire site, like any other development tools/software sites, isn't there to woo clients. Most clients don't care enough to take time and truly understand it because that's not their job. If a curious client is in a position to go to websites like ProcessWire, several steps have been skipped in the client discovery/planning process IMHO. I'd even go so far as to say that if a site has "Docs" or "Documentation" in the primary nav, it's not for clients and they shouldn't be there. I hope this isn't a too hot a take...

On 11/5/2025 at 12:32 AM, MrSnoozles said:

In my opinion at least the homepage would need a design and content overhaul

I would say that improvements could be made iteratively with more use of color for contrast, emphasis, and indicating priority. I think it's a flexible design that can evolve in whatever capacity that may be needed.

10 hours ago, MrSnoozles said:

I made a quick AI mockup of how I think it could be improved,

This has the ability to highlight some impressive facts and figures. No notes on the content, some elements could be integrated into the current design. Even then, facts and figures are for devs. I used the word "scalability" with a manager once and they stopped the conversation to ask "wait, what does that mean?" and still didn't care when I explained.

10 hours ago, MrSnoozles said:

highlighting the value for the business and developers, that with PW everything takes less time. And time is money. 

A a CMS or framework site is never going to lead to clients translating what's on the page to time or money. In all likelihood, the conversation you are having with a client at 10:00 just followed a call with their product distributor at 8:00am, their accountant at 9:00, and at 11:00 they're meeting with other members in management. Personally, I would no sooner send someone to processwire.com than I would laravel.com. You are the time and money.

20 hours ago, tires said:

Compare it to the Dupal or WordPress website. Do you think they are better positioned? What information do you think is missing for customers?

I agree with this. I will go out on a limb and say the number of end customers who went to the Drupal site and left thinking they need a Drupal site isn't zero, but it's probably close. If someone is hiring a Drupal developer then they're in a role where it's part of their job to understand the tech stack even if they aren't a dev. Visiting wordpress.com, it doesn't target the end user but name recognition still draws business which overcomes the website entirely.

9 hours ago, szabesz said:

No to mention other issues like the following. On my 2560x1440 monitor, while scrolling, I get views like:

This is fair. It doesn't take a monitor that computer professionals use to get this experience. All you need is a consumer iMac. I think iteration can address concerns.

14 hours ago, szabesz said:

"QuarkXpress only designs" from about 1995-2002. For this reason, to me, this is vintage.

I don't want to belabor the point, but to be fair, did you ever send a client to the QuarkXpress website... Just a little joke ☺️

Cheers from a fellow old school developer who built their first website in 1997 and tinkered with QuarkXpress 🍻

[szabesz]

9 minutes ago, FireWire said:

Cheers from a fellow old school developer who built their first website in 1997 and tinkered with QuarkXpress 🍻

I built "my" first website in `96 with Adobe PageMill, fighting with tables to craft the basic layout it had. It was for a bank, a handful of static pages. I had no prior experience with HTML... :P

 

[FireWire]

4 minutes ago, szabesz said:

Adobe PageMill

Free version of Microsoft FrontPage Express on Windows 98 made me think I didn't have to learn any more fancy HTML until I found out that was all a lie 🤣

[MrSnoozles]

11 hours ago, FireWire said:

Sending a client to any site for tools or software is like saying "here, do your own research".

I really liked your post in general, but can't agree with this. It is true for end clients that just want something that works and don't care about how it's done. But have you ever worked with other agencies? Can you imagine working for the first time with another agency and you're telling them you want to do the project with ProcessWire? They know a thing or two about technologies as well and also know a variety of CMS from other projects. They usually have never heard of ProcessWire so they're inevitably going to inform themselves about what they're getting into and what they're offering to their client (since we're just the contractor implementing the design).

I feel like we've had a harder time convincing those to trust us and use ProcessWire since the new website launched.

 

Edited yesterday at 08:08 AM by MrSnoozles
changed what i quoted

[wbmnfktr]

17 hours ago, FireWire said:

I don't want to be too blunt and I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never referred a client to a software or service website as part of the education process. It doesn't do anything for them. You are the expert. The person making the pitch should be able to fully explain the technology stack to the extent that the conversation requires it in language they can understand because we are the interpreters. Clients trust me because I am the expert and [...]

💯!
I couidn't have said it any better - and said similar things in the past. At least 95% of my clients don't care about what is used to achieve their goals. They need tools that work, are easy to use, have a low barrier to onboard new editors to maintain content or data.

 

5 hours ago, MrSnoozles said:

But have you ever worked with other agencies? Can you imagine working for the first time with another agency and you're telling them you want to do the project with ProcessWire? They know a thing or two about technologies as well and also know a variety of CMS from other projects. They usually have never heard of ProcessWire so they're inevitably going to inform themselves about what they're getting into and what they're offering to their client (since we're just the contractor implementing the design).

Quite a lot of times, yes. I migrated a bunch of Wordpress, Typo3, Joomla projects over to ProcessWire and everyone was happy with the result. The moment you have to deal with lots or tons of data ProcessWire beats everything. This already starts with simple things like events (parties, concerts, those kind of events) and you take care of archiving old events. 🤯 Try this with WordPress. Try to automate things. It's super easy in ProcessWire. Remove daily maintenance tasks from your clients schedule - use this as a selling point - and they will understand.

Depending on how big the project/budget was I either [a] showed them the most critical details about ProcessWire, like Security, API, Backend, Templates, Multilanguage, Access Rights/Roles. Everything is in the core, no additional modules/plugins needed. [b] built a MVP of the project, showcased automation, user management, access rights/roles, and let them (or those that would have to do so in the future) add/edit/delete content and data.

BUT... When my only part in a project is implementing the design, build out templates, components, blocks - everything frontend - I don't care what they use later on as CMS.

 

[Side note] Don't get me wrong about the overall topic. I think the new design/website could profit from some tweaks and iterations. I'd love to see more content and examples towards developers. Not only the basic API things, but how easy it is to work with it. Even when you are totally new to it.

Edited yesterday at 02:07 PM by wbmnfktr
added site note

[szabesz]

Some of us (including me) are lucky enough to have clients who do not care about the look of processwire.com and trust us that ProcessWire is the best. Not all of us are that lucky. So for those who are not so lucky, it matters a lot what a potential future client perceives when visiting processwire.com.

[FireWire]

9 hours ago, MrSnoozles said:

I really liked your post in general, but can't agree with this. It is true for end clients that just want something that works and don't care about how it's done. But have you ever worked with other agencies? Can you imagine working for the first time with another agency and you're telling them you want to do the project with ProcessWire? They know a thing or two about technologies as well and also know a variety of CMS from other projects. They usually have never heard of ProcessWire so they're inevitably going to inform themselves about what they're getting into and what they're offering to their client (since we're just the contractor implementing the design).

Yes. I've worked for agencies and with them. I've approached an agency who was full WordPress and in conversation explained the features and benefits of PW. The conversation went well but they declined to work with me. When I talked about stability and long term security, they simply said that the problems and bad parts of WordPress were part of their business model. They were quite satisfied selling a substandard product that they can count on breaking simply because they can charge their customers to fix it. There are a lot of reasons behind the decisions at agencies.

I'm not discounting your thoughts on the website, many good points, and I know that you're not alone in those sentiments. I think that it's really good that devs who regularly use PW and care about it share those thoughts. It's something that makes this community unique 👍 I doubt there's not going to be a redesign. Maybe some Iterative feedback would be constructive if Ryan and the designers are open to it. It's easier to help incrementally improve support of the work that needs to be done. Not everyone will be satisfied 🤷‍♂️ An open and honest conversation in good faith is something to be encouraged.

I personally always think content first. Maybe a conversation about what is said, how it's said, and how impactful it is as stated on the site can help. I can't find it for the life of me but I know that Ryan put a out a question of "what should be on the website?" in a post. There were a lot of great suggestions, and that's a lot of work. Maybe there can be some community contributions. Design follows content- so if there's something to say, it can help be the basis or blueprint for suggestions and improvements to the design. Want a section with stats? Perhaps share some research and stats you believe should be showcased and the text that supports it. Boxes with numbers in a wireframe don't justify the change, content does.

All that said, my perspective is one that I think is worth considering: Operate on the assumption that a design change won't be a solution to client challenges. That's pretty much it. Whether it's true or not is irrelevant. I'll mention why in my last bit below. I would go so far as to say this applies to any equation, e.g. "I'm having client challenges with x because of y". Here are some specifics of my approach.

Is it really because of the website? The website isn't that old. Is this a temporary dip in business? Has someone communicated, either directly or indirectly, that the website may have affected their decision? Unless you can confidently point to an example then it's just vibes and speculation. This is a question is less about an answer and more for considering all angles.

Refresh the approach. Are there ways to reduce the impact of force "X" that may cause conflict? Is there something that can be discussed ahead of time, or after a conversation has already taken place? For the sake of example, let's use the website as the challenge. Here's how I would approach it in a follow up conversation where ProcessWire had already been discussed, there is some hesitancy, and my concern is that the website didn't help convince them in my favor.

"So we had discussed using ProcessWire as the CMS for this project. I don't know if you've looked into it or visited the website, personally, I think it's a little more tailored for developers and programmers. There are a few other things I wanted to go over and cover any thoughts or questions you had since the last time we met" (or spoke, whatever)

Strategy:

• I brought up the CMS, not always possible, but if I'm convinced that the CMS is holding things back then it's time to engage.
• Regardless of who brings it up, I take the forward position rather than defend.
• I stated outright a shortcoming that I think X has
• If I suspect X then I bring up X if/when possible. This does one of two things: confirms that it wasn't the culprit, or deflects an opinion they may/may not have based on something I perceived is a negative.
• Opened it up for them to share their thoughts after removing barriers

I know this isn't applicable to everyone, or can be implemented exactly- but the concepts are not limited to this example. I also know that we are an international community where social norms, customs, and language may need an approach more appropriate for you. Reframing the conversation with an honest and confident approach is always a good way to connect. I like to own the perceived weaknesses in a conversation.

Build an example website. Here's the one that I think may have the biggest effect. ProcessWire doesn't have an example site where you can log in and explore. We are web designers and developers! If you don't like a website, build another one 😎 If the ProcessWire website isn't having the impact you need, it's possible to help take control of that variable. Again, we're assuming that a design change to the ProcessWire website won't be a solution to client challenges. If you have a concept that you believe will speak to the features and strengths that matter to your clients the most, then there's no better way to speak to them than this. You know your clients and the potential clients you are working to gain better than anyone. Full stop. If I remember correctly, @bernhard had/has an example PW site that you could log into, make changes, save, delete, whatever, and every X amount of time or PW event all the changes are reverted. If that's true perhaps he can share that and some tips based on his extensive knowledge and experience;

Challenge: Build as a community

An example site with real world features, a great design, and a focus on usability is a great tool to showcase software. Many CMS sites have them. Regardless if you love the new PW site or not, there is no argument that an example site would be far more effective at illustrating the power and capabilities of PW as it relates to clients, either end users or agencies. This would be an opportunity for the community to build something that pushes things forward. I don't want to speak for Ryan, but perhaps this contribution would get a link on the site. If fit gets official support, perhaps a subdomain.

I don't want to say "if you think it's that easy then try doing it yourself", but this would indeed bring in the challenges of group collaboration, planning, and delegation. That said, it's a blank slate without constraints. Take the collaborative effort that would be directed at improving the ProcessWire website, or the work that would be required to redesign it, and use it to make an experience that stands on its own.

Ryan and the designers of the new site are working on the core and continuing to refine the new admin. I think expectations have to be realistic here. The priority is the functionality and quality of the ProcessWire experience. I wouldn't assume there's time to stop work on those and work on the PW site. There's nothing stopping the community from taking on this challenge and work together or working on our individual strategies.

 

I think your original post @MrSnoozles is one that contains the topic of two threads. Website design feedback, and navigating client challenges possibly due to the website redesign. I focused on the latter because it's widely applicable and something that you, me, and everyone else can work on changing now. While that's happening, in the meantime contributing to a design conversation about the website if valuable but is at the very least a medium to long range timeline.

[bernhard]

18 hours ago, FireWire said:

If I remember correctly, @bernhard had/has an example PW site that you could log into, make changes, save, delete, whatever, and every X amount of time or PW event all the changes are reverted. If that's true perhaps he can share that and some tips based on his extensive knowledge and experience;

I wouldn't call it extensive knowledge 😅 It was just a regular PW installation that was copied via cronjob to another vhost on the server (both files and DB).