ExpressionEngine new pricing structure and how ProcessWire could benefit

[Natetronn]

I get mixed feelings replying to this topic to be honest though, let's do it:

The title says "...and how ProcessWire could benefit" but, nobody goes into any detail about how or why PW would benefit from having EE devs come to PW. Or for that matter why EE devs would benefit from PW minus it being free (there are other CMS that are free I might add.)

Posting in the EL forums wouldn't be cool by the way. Thankfully that idea looks like it was shot down! Seems like you are having fun with the Alternative.to which, is find, whatever.

Having admin themes which look like EE isn't helping your "cause" if you want to call it that. I know these are user submitted though, putting them on the homepage gives off the wrong impression especially to EE devs I've talked with. Most of which do not like "plagiarism" even if only closely resembling the EE CP. Glad you changed them out for the default ones.

You guys know why you like PW though, someone who has been using another CMS everyday for the past 5 years, for example, might just see PW as noise along with all the other CMS out there.

I've talked about it before though, there are plenty of people who prefer a template engine over strait PHP or PW API however much you might think the API is just as easy. Is PW like theming for Drupal or Wordpress? Not even close and I commend you on your work with the API though, like I said, it may not be everyone's cup of tea.

To be honest there is currently quite a bit of CMS "research" taking place within the EE community though, I'd say most people are just testing the waters and probably a bit less now that the initial shock of the EL changes have settled down a bit. Plus, folks are getting help via the new ExpressionEngine StackExchange site so free support is better than ever and there are more options for support then ever as well. 

Some people have abandoned EE altogether though, that's common with any CMS or Framework when there are major changes.

With that said, PW is being looked at yes though, so is PyroCMS, Statamic, Perch and very importantly Blockscms which probably is most likely to put a dent in EE if any significant dent are to be made. Others are being looked at as well (maybe even some RoR and Node stuff.)

• PyroCMS is moving over the Laravel 4 (away from CI) which might just propel it's future use. Hard to say. I'm sure there will be other Larvel CMS popping up (other than pongo that is.)

• Statamic is different in that it's a static CMS similar to say Jekyll though PHP based (and commercial I might add which believe it or not allot of people do like.) In it's current state it could definitely compete with Perch in the "Lite" CMS arena which by the way isn't so small any longer (the Lite CMS arena that is.)

• Perch is another one people have been looking at though, of course that's for smaller sites too. I need to give v2 a try.

• Now Blockscms is a whole different story altogether and is the most anticipated to compete directly with EE once it's out of private beta. I'm not going to go into all the details though, yeah, it's coming. We'll have to see what this new year brings for that. This is really a topic in itself so I won't extend this already long post out any more on that.

WIth the recent changes I think allot of people might consider using some of the other options I listed especially for personal sites or smaller client sites where as in the past they would have just used EE for everything. Allot of this stuff wasn't even there two years ago so, sometimes it's all about timing.

Currently there really isn't anything that is on the same level as EE especially in regards eco system. No offense but you're not there yet.

You have Drupal, WP and even Joomla of course (all are "free") which have huge eco systems but, yeah, let's not talk about those any more than I hear Drupal 8 is suppose to go Symfony 2 so I'm curious to see how that turns out.

Anyway, I guess I'm not quite sure what you guys are hoping to achieve by having people come over from EE especially since there isn't anything for you to gain other than more hands on deck (which I guess I understand.) Trying to reach any users via a forum post is just senseless if you ask me and you're going to have to step up your game in many areas to compete with what's coming down the pipe.

I look forward to seeing the future as things unravel for PW and all those involved.

[apeisa]

Nate, thanks for the good and honest post. You mention few great points that I do agree. I wasn't too keen on the general tone of this topic and it is great to hear your thoughts.

But there are few things I would like to mention:

Currently there really isn't anything that is on the same level as EE especially in regards eco system. No offense but you're not there yet.

I disagree. For most of us there is a lot more and on higher level than EE or any other CMS out there - that is the reason why we use PW. I had the freedom to choose the next CMS platform for our company. I did evaluate most of the products out there (open source or not, in our projects EE license fees are next to nothing) and PW came out as clear winner (there were 0 third party modules / themes then by the way, January 2011 - PW 2.0 was just released). Now two years later I couldn't be happier - PW has been great for us.

Anyway, I guess I'm not quite sure what you guys are hoping to achieve by having people come over from EE especially since there isn't anything for you to gain other than more hands on deck (which I guess I understand.) Trying to reach any users via a forum post is just senseless if you ask me and you're going to have to step up your game in many areas to compete with what's coming down the pipe.

Well... I think it is natural that people want to share the good stuff they know. I think for all the people here in this topic the basic intention has been purely honest and nice: "hey, there might be EE users that aren't happy - I hope they find PW since that might solve their problem". But that kind of discussion easily goes to little attacking tone that can annoy people. 

About to step up  our game: I think if Ryan can keep even 25% of the phase that he is developing the core and the growing flow with 3rd party developers and designers keeps up, we are doing just fine No need to try actively catch people from other products - but no need to be shy or shamed about using this great product.

EDIT: Pete, alert alert - IP.board is messing my quotes!

[Pete]

Any topic like this is bound to get negative at some point, whether it be people like me balking at the price of things or others with different dislikes.

All that aside, what would we achieve from more hands on deck? Well let's see - the majority of people here help each other out. Many people contribute ny way of modules (which are simple to write compared to other systems). Others spread the word because they like the project so much. It's not a case of bums on seats - we've got a growing commmunity of active users who help each other and enrich the project going forwards.

We've been lucky enough to attract a lot of talented people who used to work with other well-developed systems who now prefer ProcessWire because it genuinely saves them time and stress and makes building websites fun and quick. It's not for everyone though - you can use it to build pretty much everything you might need in a website but you might want to take a step back if you were thinking of building a specific web application or other project that requires complex relationships in the database (although some folks here are managing to build those in ProcessWire too).

We're no Wordpress/Joomla rival in terms of numbers, but all I see with those platforms is clunkyness and bloat personally. Modules for both are hit and miss as most here are aware, and clients will often push one of those systems for the sole reason that they've heard of them before and trust the name.

I'm glad we're not that big yet because we're at a stage where we have some quality modules and can keep an eye on them and suggest improvements to them. It's not imposed quality control, it's helping each other out.

Not sure where my train of thought is rolling off to, but I think the bit about what we would achieve by people coming here from other systems is that we often then have the skills as a community to help others who come from those systems. We often see questions like "I do this in my old CMS, how would I do it in PW?" which is great as the more experience we have in the community the quicker we can help those people out.

As for any perceived plagiarism with any of the admin themes (I've not used EE so don't know which theme you're referring to, hence my choice of wording), if there is an issue then please inform ryan and I'm sure he will look into it. If nobody makes a complaint then we can't take action.

I hope none of that has come across as negative. I'm not the best at being impartial on forums and I'm just trying to get my own points across.

EDIT: @Antti - fixed, there are a few styling issues left I think.

[Joss]

I think it is always difficult, but quite natural to talk about the competition.

However, the nature of the internet makes it rather more complicated than before.

In the "old world" (which I find I miss more and more) this conversation would have taken place down the pub (that is a "bar" to you foreigners!), would have been full of idle speculation and pure BS and that is where it would have stayed. Now, of course, not only is the conversation "published" but is also searchable - and therefore it is good that this conversation is congenial.

I have never used EE, and since my main income is not from web design it is unlikely that I will ever do so. I have seen screen shots of the admin and it looks exactly like the one I had on my own-designed Dreamweaver based CMS back in 2001 (A web oddity). However, since that was only ever used by 20 financial journalists I can more or less guarantee that none of the EE people ever saw it, so it is coincidence, nothing more. At the end of the day, you should never design a UI to be "different" you should design it to be workable, and by that criteria, in the end everyone's UI is going to be pretty similar, I suspect. 

There are four things that make a good application:

• Strong, under-the-hood design
• Easy to use and logical interface (so, probably not designed by a coder!   )
• Versatility to allow the client to achieve what they require and to get their true money's worth.
• A good design team that works to produce a strong, competitive product rather than achieve some sort of philosophical goal (even if the product is ultimately free)

But there is one other aspect that sometimes gets overlooked - the application must have a clearly defined market.

Being all things to all people can seem very glamorous and noble when chatting round the water cooler, but if that becomes the driving force behind the product, the result can be confused, messy and fragmented.

I think ProcessWire has a clear goal, that is what makes it attractive to me, and I think it is why (with a bit of a push) it can have mass market appeal. 

That goal: Create a website.

Because for 99% of the time, that is exactly what people will want to do with it - create a website with 'n' number of pages, all pretty similar with some bits of dancing and fun attached.  Not wonderfully headline making, but the practical day to day job of business website design.

ProcessWire does have the ability to address far more complex needs too, of course, and the fact that it can be hooked into other systems (or they be hooked into it, perhaps) means that it is wonderfully extendible for the knowledgeable designer. But that does not distract from the basic fact that it is a great way to produce a solid, secure, well balanced website and I think as long as that is kept front and centre, it will do well.

As for the competition? Well, as I said at the beginning, it is natural to talk about them, and it is wise if one sees the competition getting something wrong to learn from that - there is nothing more idiotic than repeating someone else's mistakes - but in the end, the real focus has to be in getting one's own project right, whatever the competition are up to.

As Matthew Scheneker knows, I like to be optimistic about the future of a project and get very grumpy when my optimism is undermined by idiotic, egotistical, idealogical battles that have nothing to do with good business or good R&D.

And strangely, that is what I have been enjoying most over the last couple of months - a developer and a supportive community that has a healthy and realistic "can-do" approach that is of real benefit to the users.

On that basis, the fact that ProcessWire is also a very good and solid tool is a very sweet bonus!

Joss

(PS: Years ago I had a very interesting bit of advice from Victor Kiam who was a client. He said that when a project is your baby, then keep it as your baby, keep control and don't share it. Once it gets to a size where you have to share it or you are getting a little weary of it, sell it completely and go and find a new baby.   )

[MatthewSchenker]

Greetings Everyone,

I sensed a buzzing in my ears... Oh, hello Joss!

Quick bit of relevant history: Joss and I have tag-teamed on numerous, lengthy discussions on core CMS issues, stretching back into some obscure Joomla technical groups where he and I voiced loudly the need for that CMS to adopt better custom-field options, as well as other issues.  Those were heated discussions, zeroing in on gaps in Joomla's central functioning.  But even in those inherently critical discussions, Joss and I both stayed positive and constructive and tried to do our part to move Joomla forward to improve.  In those discussions (which I could dig up for anyone who is interested) I often made comparisons between Joomla and other systems as a way of exemplifying what I thought Joomla could become -- again trying to do so in a constructive way.  Joss and I remained a virtual tag-team throughout those discussions, online and offline.

Which brings us back to the current discussion...

I spent a good portion of 2011, and most of 2012, on a quest to test several CMSs and make an honest assessment of them.  By the end of 2012, I had deeply tested the following systems:

• ProcessWire
• PyroCMS
• ModX
• ExpressionEngine
• Joomla
• Drupal
• Concrete5

It's pretty clear which system I have chosen!  But that's not the point.  The point is, I gave all these systems an unbiased try, and I learned a lot by looking at them honestly.  (With Joomla, I did more than "try," as it was my core system for about four years.)  Some of these systems have such large gaps in their capabilities I could not continue using then for the kind of sites I want to develop.  But others on this list have strong benefits.  Still, in the end, the flexibility and complete openness of ProcessWire's API made it a winner across the board for me.

The systems that come closest in my mind to ProcessWire's capabilities are EE, ModX, and PyroCMS.  Again, each of those systems has its benefits that ProcessWire could learn from (perhaps we could get into specifics in another discussion).  But again and again ProcessWire proved itself to be a more natural and flexible system.

We should acknowledge that there is a development philosophy behind each system that appeals to certain kinds of users.  For example, users who do not want to look at code, and users who want templates that lay out specifically what goes where in their sites, will be happier with systems like Joomla or Drupal.  If someone is just counting the number of available extensions, ProcessWire can't compete with Joomla or Drupal (which have tens of thousands).  I don't think the raw number of extensions is meaningful at all, but that is also for another discussion.  To many users, there is comfort in high numbers.  For people who want a fairly open system, with control of their URLs, but which still make some templating assumptions, Concrete5 and PyroCMS are good.  When you get into "completely open" systems you can seriously compare EE, ModX, and ProcessWire, at which point there are more refined choices like the use of tags, how files are handled, the speed of the interface, and more.  The specific comparisons go on and on...

I much prefer positive discussions.  That does not mean we cannot be critical.  It's more a comment on the goals of a discussion.  It's depressing when all you have achieved is a slamming of something (or someone) else.  It's much more exciting if in the end you improve your system (or yourself) by taking an honest look around you.  Also, to be blunt, it is smarter to be constructive.  Of course, it's also more work: it's just so easy to slam someone or something, especially in a forum where you know everyone already agrees with you!

The fact is, EE, PyroCMS, ModX (and other systems) were built by very capable and creative people.  We should strive to learn whatever we can from their strengths and weaknesses, while simultaneously stating clearly where ProcessWire does something better.  In these forums, we are always communicating to at least two vast audiences:

1. People already dedicated to ProcessWire

2. People testing the waters or shopping around

For both audiences, we are better off being positive and constructive.  Although there is lots of anger and criticism on public forums, I believe that most people are attracted to a positive environment.  For audience #1, we are better off pinpointing where ProcessWire can improve (while being constructive).  For audience #2, it is important to point out where ProcessWire is better than other systems (while being constructive).

Bottom line: I have found that ProcessWire is better across the board in significant ways.  There is definite value to pointing out where ProcessWire is better.  We just need to do so while being aware of the intelligence of other systems.

Thanks,

Matthew

[diogo]

A forum is a forum, and undoubtedly this must be one of the friendliest to anyone that wants to participate on discussions. And no matter what people say or how far this discussion is linked to, it can't be seen as more than a bunch of happy PW users agreeing on the benefits that PW brings over another tool and wishing that other people will see things as they do. There's nothing more natural than this, and unlike in many other forums, people that entered the discussion with a different opinion than the majority where warmly welcomed and their opinions where respected. I don't see any sign of alert here...

More importantly. If there's a voice that should be taken has the official voice of the ProcessWire project, that's Ryan's voice. And this thread gave him the opportunity of showing once more how he respects other projects and those who are behind them.

Also, I wouldn't worry too much about PW "not being there yet", in my opinion it's going in a very fast (and solid) pace.

@panictree, maybe this thread went further than you expected, or even wanted, but from my part thanks for having started it


edit: Pete sorry for another one... my paragraphs all glued toguether

edit2: managed to fix them in firefox. I was on chrome when posted before

edit3: chrome is fixed after refreshing some times

[Joss]

"When others start writing posts as long as mine, then I know it is time to change subject."

- Joss 2013

(But generally agree with all the above )

[MatthewSchenker]

Greetings,

OK, now for an obscure reference...

Has anyone else here read "The Golden Bough"?

I can explain later what I am talking about.

Thanks,

Matthew

[Joss]

Okay, my brother was into this book at one stage, though I never read it. Something about the relationship (or not) between religion and science as philosophies or something?

I will have to go look it up, me thinks.

[MatthewSchenker]

Hey Joss,

This is one of those books I come back to again and again through the years (actually, it's a 20-something-volume set in its entirety).  A lot of the cultural elements have been disputed, but the symbolic references are quite amazing for any field.  What is relevant here is its references to human reaction to symbols.

Specifically, there is a section in The Golden Bough describing how ancient warriors in some cultures ate their adversaries when they won a war.  Not as a sign of disrespect, but as an admission that even if you win a war, your adversaries possess desirable powers.  Consuming your adversaries was seen as a way to literally take their powers into yourself.

Just symbolically, of course.

Thanks,

Matthew

[ryan]

The title says "...and how ProcessWire could benefit" but, nobody goes into any detail about how or why PW would benefit from having EE devs come to PW. Or for that matter why EE devs would benefit from PW minus it being free (there are other CMS that are free I might add.)

 

We have many users that have come over from EE, just like we have many users that have come over from WordPress, Drupal, MODx and Joomla, among other platforms. These users are enthusiastic about ProcessWire and like to share their enthusiasm with friends. 

 

Please don't confuse the title of this thread as being something the project is trying to pursue, because it's not. I'm assuming the OP is a current/former EE user that is enthusiastic about PW and wants to share that. We are not actively trying to benefit from changes at EllisLab or trying to pursue EE users. If I were an EE user, I would want what's best for the company behind it and would stick with it. When those changes were announced, I went to the #eecms hashtag to see what all the fuss was about. There were other projects being opportunistic about it (the Perch one was actually kind of cute). We were silent on it. Just because there were current/former EE users talking about ProcessWire does not mean that ProcessWire is trying to pursue EE. 

 

Having admin themes which look like EE isn't helping your "cause" if you want to call it that. I know these are user submitted though, putting them on the homepage gives off the wrong impression especially to EE devs I've talked with. Most of which do not like "plagiarism" even if only closely resembling the EE CP. Glad you changed them out for the default ones.

 

EE has nothing to do with any "cause" here. I changed the theme shown on the homepage because users here thought it would be better if it showed exactly what you see when you install, until we get the rotation up. We have several sets that are going to go in there (rotating) and the one that was there previously is one of them. Now that the default admin theme is in there, there have still been folks that say "that looks like EE". I designed that admin theme and can say for certain it takes no inspiration from EE. I really don't know if the other admin theme that was in there takes inspiration from EE or not. But looking through screenshots, it seems like there are similarities and differences. I'm not convinced anyone was trying to copy the look of EE. Design trends and interfaces for similar tasks are bound to bear some resemblances to each other. People need to step out their front door. There is one thing I can be certain of though, and that's that I'm glad people might say "that looks like EE" and not "that looks like Joomla".

 

Plus, folks are getting help via the new ExpressionEngine StackExchange site so free support is better than ever and there are more options for support then ever as well.

 

I was glad to see this. It came along at the right time. If I was an EE user, this would make me a lot less concerned about the changes in support plans. 

 

With that said, PW is being looked at yes though, so is PyroCMS, Statamic, Perch and very importantly Blockscms which probably is most likely to put a dent in EE if any significant dent are to be made. Others are being looked at as well (maybe even some RoR and Node stuff.)

 

Glad to hear PW and others are being looked at. We are thrilled to welcome any EE users. Still, if folks are happy with everything about EE from the software side (even if a little angry about EllisLab changes in the short term), they shouldn't abandon it. CMSs aren't religions, and it's okay to use more than one. 

 

It is curious to me that Blocks gets mentioned despite not even being out. Blocks appears to be built as a platform specifically targeted towards EE users, and that's probably why. The model behind that one is ultimately a paid model. EE itself is inexpensive in the grand scheme of things. Blocks apparently takes that further by just making the core free instead (a little bit of a trap). But the end result is the same: you'll be spending significant amounts of money on either, because both are built around a paid model. They are there for the money. And that's perfectly fine so long as the user understands that. But with EE, at least you are getting an experienced platform, history and track record. 

 

My opinion is that EE users looking for a change should look outward (beyond the money model) not inward. One you have your "a ha" moment with ProcessWire, you'd lose all interest in EE or anything like it. But EE users have to be willing to let go of learned complexity, baggage and preconceptions about CMSs in their mind. And not everyone is ready for that. If an EE user either isn't ready or doesn't find what they are looking for by looking outward, then they should instead look beyond the short term angry EE chatter. EllisLab is making long term decisions for the benefit of the company and the software, and it's actually a good reason for those folks that really like it, to stick with it. Individual developers are not going to be the ones paying these $20k yearly support fees, so it shouldn't be an issue. It's the big enterprise clients that will pay those fees, and they'll think it's a great deal relative to their old CMS monsters. What's good for EllisLab will ultimately be good for the people that want to implement and use their software. 

 

Currently there really isn't anything that is on the same level as EE especially in regards eco system. No offense but you're not there yet.

 

This is confusing quantity with quality. If quantity is the measurement, then EE isn't there yet either. If it was, I don't think EllisLab would be changing their business model. For better or worse, the EE ecosystem is also built around a money model. That ecosystem rises and falls with a business rather than the product.  

 

PW has always been about quality and has never been about quantity. I started this project as the only user for many years. When I put it out there, I intended to keep it going for the long term regardless of how many users we had. We don't get paid here. We do the work because we love it. 

 

You have Drupal, WP and even Joomla of course (all are "free") which have huge eco systems but, yeah, let's not talk about those any more than I hear Drupal 8 is suppose to go Symfony 2 so I'm curious to see how that turns out.

 

They may be huge now, but Drupal and Joomla will really have to fight hard to be relevant in the future. They carry a lot of legacy ideas and methodology, and they kind of have to. They can only lose market share from here, so it seems like they are pursuing defensive growth strategies. When a Drupal, Joomla or WordPress developer gets a taste of ProcessWire--and really gets it--they are changed. I think that ProcessWire and systems like it will make it difficult for the likes of Drupal and Joomla to stay relevant in the long term. I'm sure EllisLab sees this too. But EE users should at least feel good that EllisLab is pursuing a growth strategy that seems geared towards growth rather than maintenance. WordPress is not great software either, but we can all learn something from the way they've grown and likely will continue to. I wouldn't trade our ecosystem or software with any of theirs. And for those that measure by quantity, we'll get there too, but we won't be counting.

 

Anyway, I guess I'm not quite sure what you guys are hoping to achieve by having people come over from EE especially since there isn't anything for you to gain other than more hands on deck (which I guess I understand.) Trying to reach any users via a forum post is just senseless if you ask me and you're going to have to step up your game in many areas to compete with what's coming down the pipe.

 

People from EE are totally welcome here. I'm glad you've joined the discussion. But want to be clear we are not hoping to achieve anything in that regard. If our strategy were to pursue users from other CMSs, we wouldn't be pursuing EE -- it only represents a tiny sliver of the CMS pie. We only want to gain users based purely on the quality of our software and community, and the good reputation that accompanies it. This is an open community and we don't control what gets posted. The only reason you see EE mentioned here is because of EE users that are now using ProcessWire. I appreciate their enthusiasm. While I have positive feelings for EllisLab and EE, it is not on the radar here as having anything to do with our project, goals or strategy.

 

[Joss]

 Consuming your adversaries was seen as a way to literally take their powers into yourself.

Ah, I can think of a few large software companies that have done exactly that over the years.....

[Joss]

Ryan

That is a good post and makes a lot of sense.

When I moved over to PW a couple of months ago it was through recommendation because I was finding various platforms frustrating. It was a big jump for me since I am not a natural coder and far more of a writer and editor.

Interestingly enough, I have never had any sense that this project is aimed at anyone except web developers/designers that need a tool to achieve a purpose. That could be anyone - those that have used a lot of the CMSs or those that have used none. ProcessWire would suit both camps amicably, to be honest, without needing to be highly competitive.

My real job has always sat me right in the middle of the media, advertising and drama world and I thought I was used to darlings and luvvies pouting about each other.

I have to admit, the amount of drama queens I have run into in the CMS world has been a bit of a shock! 

On that basis alone, ProcessWire has been wonderfully refreshing in its professional and non-confrontational approach. Almost controversial, I would say!

Right, back to work everyone! (In my case that means finding a couple of country singers in Nashville who are up for a challenge!)

Joss

[apeisa]

This is somehow related: https://www.acquia.com/blog/open-source-community-and-freedom

[ryan]

This is somehow related: https://www.acquia.c...ity-and-freedom

Great article. Nice to see Deane Barker from Gadgetopia (one of our forum members) quoted there too. 

[Natetronn]

Hey thanks for the replies everyone!

I didn't realize this was in the "Pub" section. That being said, this topic does fit into a bar type atmosphere of sorts and by no means was I trying to rain on anyones parade if it appeared that way.

There is quite a bit here for me to go on point by point so, I will just add a few thoughts if you don't mind.

Just to be clear, I wasn't insinuating there has been plagiarism going on (I've actually defended PW on twitter before. Note: "everyone" should have said "every where") though, this topic was about EE devs and inviting them over to PW so, perception is important and the point I was trying to make.

As far as you guys "not being there yet", I'm really referring to quality and quantity at the same time, actually. Currently you have quality though, you don't have quantity. And in this discussion you need both because you are hoping to bring over EE devs who are use to having both, at least in regards to eco system; which I mentioned.

This being specifically about eco system and nothing to do with the CMS themselves. So, I'm referring to number of quality add-ons and the number of quality add-on devs and the number or quality resources available to some one who might be comparing a CMS. So yeah, talking about both quality and quantity here.

Blocks is in private beta and was built in part to fill specific gaps which were missing from EE itself though, it's going to be in quite the same position as you currently are in regards to quantity (eco system) though, it has the benefit of everyone in the EE community knowing the people, personally, who have created it as well as everyone who works at P&T.

Blocks already has @blockscommerce which will launch, I'm sure, shortly after blocks comes out of beta. From my understanding PW has a Ecomm system in the works and or recommends Shopify. When blockscommerce comes out it will have a company behind it, a website, a support area, a track record coming from EE and much more.  I'm sure the dev for "PW E Commerce" is great though, is it use at your own risk? Where is support, what if I need help and I'm not Ryan or the original dev who knows how to fix it if something goes wrong?  Just the forums here? 

Take Magento for example, if you look at their website they have it all! They have the Eco system in place and have all the resources any dev could ever want. At first glance that is. We all know it's a beast of a system and well, now it's part of X.commerce so, "no soup for you." Some companies will gain quite a bit from the acquisition though, I think most will be left behind. (maybe i'm straying a bit)

Anyway, I guess I'm wondering where PW stands on things now and how PW foresees handeling growth in the future. But, before growth I guess I'm wondering more about direction or where PW plans to be in a year for example. These are all things as an EE dev myself I wonder about.

Disclaimer: as you know I've been here before talking with you guys about stuff (like template engines) as I do with many CMS (was up last night talking with Phil from PryoCMS too) so, I'm possibly not your average EE dev, more like a CMS Fanatic. I install and beta test CMS for the fun of it. After this I will go back to building an ExpressionEngine ecommerce site with the Store add-on from Expresso and enjoy doing it even on my day off

Keep up the good work!

[Adam Kiss]

But the answer isn't very hard!

The year 2013 is a year of 3 things we'd like to accomplish:

• Continue with this nice growth we are currently experiencing
• Get the documentation in the top notch shape (so the forums don't explode with the same questions and confused people)
• Keep on improving website 

All of these of course while improving the CMS (and the ecosystem as well) itself.

Note: this is my opinion, not official statement from PW Team

[Pete]

That Twitter link is a pretty common occurrence. Things like that happen on the web every day as I'm sure everyone knows - I've seen things like "X looks like Y, must be a rip-off" due to things like colour schemes over the years and I don't think the users get confused over minor similarities (if you're logged out of the forum software here, the skin for that has green, square buttons at the top-right, and that's in the forum software's skin, nothing to do with EE or PW so nobody has the rights to a colour or shape in my mind ). Obviously it can go too far with whole interfaces copied, hence my earlier concern - I've had an entire one of my sites cloned in the past and that was annoying to say the least.

On to the rest, there's some interesting stuff there - a lot of your questions can only be answered by ryan I think, but here are my personal thoughts on some other parts:

It took me a while to understand what you meant by Blocks - I thought this was something to do with EE to begin with, but a search on Google shows it's a new CMS. The title is very clever - whilst it sends shivers down my spine ("blocks" to my mind brings back visions of the web when data was very much siloed into containers and is the realm of older CMS' in my mind, though I know a lot are still around that operate this way) it's also very clever, as that's a term most non-devs are familiar and comfortable with. I'm not suggesting that's how it works, just that it has a clever, simple, catchy title

Hope Apeisa doesn't mind me giving my thoughts on the the ProcessWire e-commerce module and I hope I'm not miles off with this (correct me if I'm wrong Antti), but it is marked in the modules directory as being at proof of concept stage at present. I think I'm right in saying that it's in use on a couple of sites though so it does work. Apeisa, is part of a larger dev team in the company he works for (again, correct me if I'm wrong) and the module was built to fulfil the needs of a website for one of their clients. At some point personally think it will have developers building payment and shipping modules for it and it being one of the key modules, but I think it's fair to say that it is in the early stages at the moment. But it's one of the oddities of ProcessWire that you could technically whip up a payment module in an hour or two that will work with it and be using it quite happily - there's just lots of features that dedicated e-commerce solutions have that aren't there yet because nobody's picked it up and built those extra bits into it as they haven't had the need to yet. I know personally though of one ecommerce site I've built recently where I wished I'd built it in ProcessWire and expanded upon that module rather than pour as many hours as I have done into a full-blown e-commerce solution trying to bend it to my seemingly straightforward needs

There is the potential issue at present (and I think I'm getting a sense of that from your post) that it's not apparent who is behind ProcessWire. I think (personal opinion again) that this is intentional as it's ryan in the driving seat with the rest of us contributing with support and tutorials on the forums, docs on the Wiki and of course the modules. There are also rare cases someone will write some code that makes it into the core, but the rarity there is no bad thing - it's just that ryan's built the system so well and it's already incredibly powerful. If you really get stuck in with it and experience the power, it all seems so elegant and well thought out, and at the same time there's so much in there that if I didn't know better I would expect it to be the work of a larger team rather than one person. I've honestly never seen anything this complicated work with so few issues or bugs - ryan has a rare gift (and a tonne of experience).

I think it's fair to say that it's a community effort as a whole, and if you spend some time on the forums you can kind of get a sense of who does what (I talk lots and use brackets far too much in every post) but maybe one of the next steps is to loosely define a "team" with "roles and responsibilities" - the thing there though is that you're stuck between trying to do that to be helpful to newcomers to show who does what, and at the same sounding a bit like a big company-driven CMS and introducing hierarchies where those in the hierarchy aren't actually coherently linked to a company. It puts people's minds at ease, but it can be a bit smoke-and-mirrors.

To me, the "next level" isn't about churning out modules, even if they are quality - that will come with time and I expect we'll be well into the hundreds in 12 months' time, but why have what others have? As a bad example, Wordpress has 125 pages of plugins just to do with the word "gallery" - that's over 1,000 gallery-related plugins - how many ways of delivering an image gallery are there?! Also consider that a normal gallery wouldn't even need a module in ProcessWire, just a template, a few lines of code and you're away - it's already there in the API functionality-wise.

I hope that as we see more modules written for ProcessWire that when it looks like someone is re-inventing the wheel that we can persuade people to work together and have a modules combining different options where appropriate rather than lots of modules doing almost the same thing, but I think it's inevitable that we'll get to a point somewhere along our upward curve where that's too much to manage.

The beauty of ProcessWire is that the basic requirements for the majority of small and large websites are already covered out of the box. It's just things like ecommerce that need some more attention at some point. (Another irrelevant personal view - for most developers I'd wager that unless you're specifically targetting shop owners the majority of your sites aren't shops anyway, but I can see how it would be off-putting if your business revolves around e-commerce - still, there are tools out there for that so there's no rush to have a full-featured solution for it in PW).

The "next level" things to me are more about:

1. Official docs on the website - something more coherent that gathers together the Wiki, the main Tutorials etc and has use cases (with code) for every function in the Cheatsheet
2. Probably a structured series of screencasts to highlight some of the common things you can do - focusing on specific things like image galleries etc.

They're almost the same thing, but it's important to cater for people that prefer to learn by reading and people that prefer to watch tutorials being built before their eyes.

The more we show people what they can do if they get stuck in, the better, but ProcessWire's key differentiators are that it makes no assumptions about your markup or the type of site you want to build - therefore it makes you get your hands dirty with a little PHP, HTML and CSS. This will turn away a lot of people I'm sure, but I'd say that if you're not willing to roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty just a little then why are you building a website instead of hiring someone to do it for you

EDIT: Adam beat me to it by almost an hour, but his answer is a concise version of my waffle

[Adam Kiss]

EDIT: Adam beat me to it by almost an hour, but his answer is a concise version of my waffle

How in the world do you write a post to topic and miss an hour old post?

[Pete]

Because it took me longer than an hour to write it In my defence I did have other tabs open with other things going on too.

[Joss]

There is a joke about Google and Apple App stores that there are a million apps - and 999,999 of them do the same thing.

The point with ProcessWire is that it is perfect for people who do not want to be channelled into a narrow focus of development by how either the central system works or how the plugin developers think you should work, but want to have a system which allows them to problem solve quickly and easily.

Take me, as a pretty non-techy sort of person. I have put together a block based (!) site to use for a particular process. It has slide shows, carousels, and all kinds of straightforward JQuery gimmicks that suit my purpose and I haven't once had to go and get a module from anywhere. I was able to do it all with the structure that PW offers me.

I have used Joomla quite aggressively over the years, including for a large support site for an online game, and have used a multitude of extensions from the JED.

The vast majority of them I can replicate on ProcessWire without recourse to any modules, and those I cannot replicate, I probably will be able to eventually, or some bright spark on here well help me out.

And the best thing of all? Because this all uses the Processes in the system and relates directly and seamlessly into the Wiring of the core, my finished product does not resemble one of those large tinfoil balls at 1970s parties with cocktail sticks of pineapple and cheese stuck all over it!

Even to non-tech me, it looks like a unified application, ready to be rolled out and used by a client.

Now, that is fun.

Think I will go and play some depressing blues on a Ukulele to celebrate! 

Joss

[Adam Kiss]

I have used Joomla quite aggressively over the years…

Is there any other way to use Joomla?

Note: this jab at Joomla is my personal opinion

[Natetronn]

Most of your points which make PW great are very similar to what make ExpressionEngine great. That's why I'm even here. It's about freedom to build a system that meets your client/project needs. Custom fields is something that PW and EE both do very well where as many other systems do not. WP is trying with custom post types and ACF but, they're not there yet (oops, there I go again!) at least not by default and Drupal has CCK but it's a PITA IMO.

As far as there being a ton of add-ons, well, EE isn't like WP/Drupal/Joomla. It doesn't have a million add-ons. It only has about 1500 add-ons (according to Devot-ee at least.) Granted there are 4 or so commerce add-ons but, they all have their place and some projects call for one over the other. Sometimes is just personal taste. You really have to spend a few months with it to know what I mean. I guess that could be said for most CMS, however.

EE has almost zero themes by the way. Something I think which has helped WP and Joomla grow so large as communities.

The changes with EL are why people are considering other options. The CMS and eco system itself isn't the issue as far as I can tell. At least it wasn't. Most don't even mind paying for it and for add-ons by the way. This could change of course in the future but, EE the CMS and EE the eco system are currently in a great state from all I can tell. EL has done what they feel is the best for their future and although, it was pushed out very quickly and without any warning they, I'm sure, are doing the best they can from their vantage point. Let's see what this year holds.

I'm glad to see some of the todos like tutorials and documentation/examples etc. You're not getting ahead of yourself which is good. Curious to see what Ryan has to say as well.

Thanks for the discussion by the way, this has turned out to be a much better thread, don't you think

[Joss]

EE has almost zero themes by the way. Something I think which has helped WP and Joomla grow so large as communities.

This is an interesting point and I think it is probably one of the main reasons they have grown*, but I would be interested in knowing how much themes have helped to the growth of these amongst professional developers - which is the market segment where things like EE and ProcessWire are probably more comfortable.

I can only talk of my own experience, but although when I first started using Mambo I did go theme hunting, I quickly worked out that this was more of a burden than a help - converting someone else's theme often took more time than writing my own, and most of the themes out there seemed so loaded with functionality that I did not need that they slowed the site down.

Later with Joomla, the only one I used was one with Twitter Bootstrap built in as a starting point but the rest blank.

Since there is no theme system as such, in ProcessWire, it cannot take advantage of that sort of promotion in quite the same way. Though obviously if you are using it with a framework like Bootstrap, you can replace the bootstrap.min.css file to change buttons and colours.

But I see that as a strength since you can use any framework or templating system or none at all as you wish, without having to work round any preconceived ideas. As I have joked before, you can even use an old copy of Dreamweaver.

*Note: The other thing that has helped Drumlapress is that they are available with Factastico and other systems with many hosting providers reprinting tutorials or creating their own hints and tips peculiar to their particular set up.

[apeisa]

There ain't themes on EE and PW because they don't generate markup => very hard to provide any kind of theming.