Some questions about how you work with clients

[totoff]

do you estimate the final price at this stage already

For small projects I estimate the final price for the whole project before I start with the consulting. In this case it is indeed including project costs into consulting or - put the other way round - let consulting become part of the project. For larger projects where I suspect surprises I handle this completely separate: Step 1 consulting, step 2 webproject (or other media as required). Obviously in this cases the customer gets it's quote once step 1 is done.

At the moment I'm trying to figure out how to secure me against to many rounds of amendments if the customer changes his mind.

[pwired]

Best thread ever about this subject imo

From my experience it is very important that consulting gets recognized as a separate part of the project with its own budget in order to be accepted. This must happen in the forefront. If you miss this step, you'll find yourself very soon in a situation of consulting for free. Billing it afterwards is nearly impossible.

You have put it very clear and gives me some ideas for next approaches.

[teppo]

At the moment I'm trying to figure out how to secure me against to many rounds of amendments if the customer changes his mind.

A lot of it boils down to communication, and this is where very clear description of what will be built tends to help. If the contract (and/or related documents) state things clearly enough, including descriptions of noteworthy features (and in the case of web projects, preferably even rough sketches and/or wireframes), there's not (too much) ground to change that later, unless both parties agree that it's the better choice.

At least around here it's also not too uncommon to specify amount of "comment rounds", especially for things like layouts -- it's always better to not have to rely on such clause, but it does provide a safety net of sorts to the designer/developer (and it's much better to agree on such things beforehand than trying to force such restrictions later on).

[lisandi]

@totoff: I guess that's pretty close to what I described earlier, i.e. something like a separate project to get the concept straight, though it sounds like you're also including project costs in some form here.

Sorry if I sound a bit too inquisitive here, but.. what I'd really like to hear is that do you estimate the final price at this stage already, or are you simply stating what your hourly rate is and that the final amount will depend on the concept stage? Or do you perhaps provide another quote with more specific details (about prices and the features of the end product) when the concept is finished?

A lot of it boils down to communication, and this is where very clear description of what will be built tends to help. If the contract (and/or related documents) state things clearly enough, including descriptions of noteworthy features (and in the case of web projects, preferably even rough sketches and/or wireframes), there's not (too much) ground to change that later, unless both parties agree that it's the better choice.

At least around here it's also not too uncommon to specify amount of "comment rounds", especially for things like layouts -- it's always better to not have to rely on such clause, but it does provide a safety net of sorts to the designer/developer (and it's much better to agree on such things beforehand than trying to force such restrictions later on).

In our experience we only get into trouble when things get not clearly specified in the contract. There fore we offer customers in Germany and Austria (as there we are having problems and no where else - don't know why only there) an AGB which they have to sign and send back!

Here it is stated if it is a fixed price project how the billing schedule is and usually we have exact dates for the billing as some customers have the habbit to start a project and than stretch it to nowhere time. This is destructive for the project and also for our company. One reason why we offer FREE Hosting for one year incl Update Service for all Modules and cores when we have installed from START of the project and we define the payment schedule clear by weeks - not by milestones!!!

i.e. first rate - usually 50% in advance than 25% after the setup of the base system but latest after 2 weeks after start of the project. Usually than the project is already paid of but we can't make any profit. Often customers wonder why they also receive already the second 25% rate invoice after a few days. This is mostly because when you have organised your work clearly and are working in a team even if it is globally distributed the base setup is very very fast. i.e. Take a Processwire Profile! It would take seconds! to reach the 50% level! Of course you need to calculate all the time in you actually needed to setup yor packages so that you can deploy the bases so fast! ;-) You could say that the first part is like the assembly line of building a car. you only put pre-developed and pre-configured things together without any customization. If now the customer blocks to pay the secon payment you won't loose to much and actually will have already a little profit.

the second rate would be than inserting the content. Often agency IMHO make one mistake that they start the templating first and focus on the look. If you are doing this than it bears the chance that the customer will take it and go away with a more or less ready to use system. Usually you can actually explain custemrs very good why the second step would be the content and not the design. Mostly the design depends on the content and not vice evrsa like it is on a print media where it is clearly defined how many words, are allowed to write here and there etc.

Most customers are struggeling with that second phase as they simply don't have content and some even think you will provide them the content like one we had who came up and asked: "I can't see on my website that you wrote about shrimp farming in Thailand at all! and where are the pictures so that people will like the page!"

The design part is than part 3 and unsually we split the payments up again in milestones here. always 50% of the still open amout. This means the amount you will "earn" is getting bigger and the amout you probably will "loose" is getting smaller.

Very important is than at the end, that you get a written consent (especially for German Customers) that the site is OK and that he is fully satisfied. Also on web projects you might have a waranty periode if you are a German or European based development company! be aware of this as this can get very expensive part which also will destruct perhaps other projects when to many requests come in.

Actually I recommend to produce webprojects for European Customers from outside of the EU! Much less headaches but still "the payment problem itself"! But check you local laws and tax rules too and deregester from your EU country completely (important mostly to avoid double taxations etc.)!

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For projects which will take longer time or for support or service contracts we don't use the fixed price model but a prepaid man/hour model.

i.e. The customer wants to test us, so he can order a minimum of a half a man/day = 4 hours for a quite high amount in comparison to the others . (1500 THB)

if they now want to get the hour cheaper they can purchase a full day or a week or a month. We calculated the benefits more or less like this.

Buy one man/day and get 2 man/hour free, Buy one man/week (40 hours) and get one man/day (8 hours) free, buy one man/month and get 1 man/week free, buy a man/quarter and get half a man/month (2 weeks = 80 hours) free buy half a man/year and get 1 man/month (4 weeks = 160 hours) free. Buy one man/year and get a man/quarter Free. (12 weeks = 480 hours) (as an example)

1 man/hour means that one person is working 1 hour or 2 persons are working 30 Minutes etc. - A time tracking tool is a MUST! and give tour customer also an access so that he can track also his own time spend with the project or reading emails. Some of our customers did and were amazed how much time it costs alone the communication!

Don't be afraid to make the entrance price high - it actually should cover you costs and your full profits and more (don't forget waranty and leagal costs or costs for an inkasso company!). In our experience it helps that people buy at least a week package to try your service!

State clearly that even answers to the mails from the customers and any skype talk - actually any action for or with the customer gets billed - make this very clear!!! otherwise you will loose a lot of time and money.

Working with Processwire makes actually many things quite easy in terms of billing. It provides Profiles - is very modularized - and it provides lots of tutorials - even video tutorials - where customers can check out a task and see what might get involved, so there are not so much hidden secrets!

Don't forget to keep your joker in your hand until the last payment has reached your bank account! One Joker is to use at least one paid module with a license key in the site - and this also supports the development of Processwire ;-) - It would be very good actually when those license keys would NOT be readable for the customers and that they are used like a password! - add one letter somewhere and the license is invalid. For testing take that letter out.

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Last but not least one of the most important points for your cost calculation hasn't discussed here at all:

Waranty / Gewaehrleistungs!

Don't underestimate it as also Web or Software Projekts ar subject of that.

If you haven't clearly excluded specific stuff in your AGB than the Warranty Time of that country usually is in affect and this can be VERY long ( in Terms of a website! For a website even one year is a very long time - simply calculate how many updates will happen during that time! And each update can cause a total blackout if things change to much! IMHO you really should consult a lawyer specified in Internet law before starting, to avoid problems.

Switzerland 2 Years

Germany 2 Years

USA ?

UK ?

It would be nice learn how the legal waranty gets handled about that in your country too!

For Developers working in Germany some helpful links and an example of a "Lastenheft" which you could give to your customers:

http://lastenheft-vorlage.de/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/Lastenheft_Vorlage_W&P_1401.doc which has to be provided by the Customer

http://www.pm-handbuch.com/pm-vorlagen/ i.e. "Pflichten Heft" which has to be done by the Developer!

https://www.thomashelbing.com/de/haftung-gewaehrleistung-fuer-software-diesen-tipps-reduzieren-risiko-it-anbieter - about the leagal situation in Germany concerning Waranties etc.