Checking in

[raydale]

Hi guys,

It's been a while since I was involved in the forums here. I've been away working with legacy Drupal, Joomla and WordPress systems due to client requirements. It's been a time hog and not all that enjoyable a process.

I finally had a chance to use PW for a project again yesterday and what a breath of fresh air it has been! I had forgotten how easy, consistent and reliable querying pages was, no more temperamental WP_Query object in WordPress or complex render arrays in Drupal.

It's great to see how the community has grown since I last checked in, as well as the improvements to ProcessWire overall. Ryan is steering forward in a very strong direction. I'm going to have to get the FormBuilder plugin I think, it looks to be fantastic.

Anyway, I hope to be hanging around here more soon as a bit of work/life freedom approaches. Keep up the good work.

[Adam Kiss]

Next time, just say no to legacy code and hang out with the cool kids (us)

[MatthewSchenker]

Greetings raydale,

Your name sounds very familiar... I am one of the new people who arrived since your last activity.

I am in a similar position as you. After building several sites in Joomla (with a CCK), I have fully moved to ProcessWire. And now I am in the position of having to "move" sites from Joomla to ProcessWire. In some cases, it's actually less work to just start over.

Thanks,

Matthew

[raydale]

@adamkiss - well I am hoping that I can persuade clients to use PW more over the coming months as new business starts to flow again, I can maybe even persuade a few older clients to give WordPress a break.

@MathewSchenker - Greetings to you too. It's interesting to see someone familiar with Joomla moving across to ProcessWire. There is a lot of hype in the Joomla community about 3.0 (with 3.5 slated soon too?), but still no CCK type features in core?

I know what you mean about it being less work to start over. Both Drupal and Joomla have been a knightmare to upgrade and design for. WordPress less so, but some of the community plugins and even premium themes used by some clients are poor. I am primarily a designer, but I am still a little concerned about some of the coding practices in WordPress plugins and themes used.

I have learned some big lessons over the past 10 months or so, especially in which CMS to use for which situation. I have to say that ProcessWire seems to more easily cope with nearly everything (the exceptions being forums and turnkey eCommerce at the moment).

The trouble I am finding is that once a client is comfortable with a particular system, they are very reluctant to move away from it and building a convincing case can be difficult at times.

[panictree]

Hi raydale,

Welcome back!

The trouble I am finding is that once a client is comfortable with a particular system, they are very reluctant to move away from it and building a convincing case can be difficult at times.

Yes, I've faced this problem before, particularly with WordPress users, as they seem to find WP easy to use, and trying to convince them to move from a system they feel comfortable with to a new system they have to learn is tough. Normally, what I do, is present them with a list of the benefits they will get if they make the switch. I also provide them with some initial training on how to get started with ProcessWire, highlighting the key points and how-tos. Once I show them how PW works and how it relates to the way WP works, they generally feel more confident in their ability to get along with the new system.

Claudio

[raydale]

I also provide them with some initial training on how to get started with ProcessWire, highlighting the key points and how-tos. Once I show them how PW works and how it relates to the way WP works, they generally feel more confident in their ability to get along with the new system.

Thanks panictree, I think you've actually hit the nail on the head there with the training. This brings me to an idea of initially offering videos demonstrating how their website could be better managed as well as training once a conversion is agreed. It's a time consuming effort, but one that could make all the difference.

I have to say that the strong usability focus is one area WordPress really gets right, especially with elements like the new redesigned media library features in version 3.5. Having said that, ProcessWire is so easy to mould into a very usable system in of itself that the added power and flexibility PW provides make it more than a match.

[Pete]

I think it may have been discussed before, but some videos here on ProcessWire.com showing an easy conversion of a WordPress site might not be a bad idea.

Since the basic elements of most Wordpress sites are the same it could just be as simple as a comparison of what you do in Wordpress as opposed to how you do it in ProcessWire.

Off the top of my head, you would start with how to make a post in either system which is 99% of what they do on it, before showing them the technical possibilities by adding a custom field in 5 seconds in the admin, then adding it to the template and blowing their minds with the possibilities.

What we really need is a series of videos like this comparing things I think as they don't know how easy it is unless you show them.

[raydale]

Morning Pete,

I think the technical side of things would be too far for the clients I have. However, it would be of interest to some and as mentioned would be a thing of wonder to show off PW's capabilities to the CMS communities. I'll have a think on this as I'm quite serious about showing videos of workflow in PW, which could be extended into more technical areas too.

[Joss]

@Pete

As an extension to a tutorial, perhaps supplying a profile That is as close as possible would be interesting.

MInd you, I suppose Ryans blog profile is not far off already.

[Pete]

@ray - I was thinking that it would start with a "this is how you post in ProcessWire" so that you're showing the end-user how to enter content in ProcessWire as opposed to WordPress. At the basic end, this shows them that it's really simple and nothing to be afraid of. Then a simple 30 second bit at the end that adds a field to a template (shorten the sequence maybe) and show them how easy it is to do that for the slightly more adventurous Wordpress user.

I think we just need a direct comparison as a starting point - this is how you create a "post", upload images and insert them into the "post". Then if we skip the bit where we setup categories and show them how easy that is we've pretty much covered a lot of it.

Someone has already developed a tag field too but I can't seem to locate it in the Modules directory.

@Joss - I agree. Ryan's profile is excellent out of the box already but - no offense ryan, and I think I've said this before - I wouldn't mind seeing a version that is even simpler code-wise. I know functions are the sensible way to go, but a version with more of the PHP code inline done neatly would probably appeal more to beginners and those WordPress users that are happy enough to dabble in WordPress' template code but not comfortable with functions etc.

Something else to go on the list I think are a few alternative themes out of the box, but I think we've talked about that before. It's not really something you need to think about with ProcessWire as you can do what you like template-wise, but I think a few choices of killer designs would certainly entice people in who don't have the skills to begin integrating their own templates, but that would certainly like to learn over time.

[Joss]

Yes, I have to admit that I haven't quite understood Ryan's code fully - does he come from a planet with a more advanced civilisation than you and me?

Also, for the profile I would be tempted to do a responsive template since that is more or less the default on WP now (and other systems). Just a very simple header, body, sidebar system.

Not very difficult to make it so the sidebar is either left or right with a switch in a "settings" page.

Also, images:

http://processwire.com/talk/topic/2573-images-module-source-page/

[panictree]

[…] Then a simple 30 second bit at the end that adds a field to a template (shorten the sequence maybe) and show them how easy it is to do that for the slightly more adventurous Wordpress user.

@Joss - I agree. Ryan's profile is excellent out of the box already but - no offense ryan, and I think I've said this before - I wouldn't mind seeing a version that is even simpler code-wise. I know functions are the sensible way to go, but a version with more of the PHP code inline done neatly would probably appeal more to beginners and those WordPress users that are happy enough to dabble in WordPress' template code but not comfortable with functions etc.

Very interesting points here, Pete. I think the short tutorials on slightly more technical bits that you propose will not only help end-users but also less experienced designers/developers that want to start using the system but really don't know how. I think this would be less intimidating to them than, say, going to the API documentation and start getting ideas from there.

This leads us to your next point, the idea of developing a more beginner friendly blog profile. I think the current blog profile is fantastic, and I've personally learned a ton of stuff from it, like how to neatly use functions to organise your code and make it more easily maintainable, best practices, etc. Having said that, I think it's far too intimidating for beginners, so having an easier alternative sounds like an excellent idea.

[…] does he come from a planet with a more advanced civilisation than you and me?

I personally have some theories on this, but I'm gonna keep them to myself for the time being!  

[Pete]

The problem with my idea of a "simpler" blog profile is that if I build it it's going to feel a bit wrong as it will throw some best practices out of the window to essentially "dumb it down", so if I were to attempt that then I might feel a littly dirty by the end of the process

[Joss]

Hey, I have no issue with designing something Dumbed Down - I do it all the time.

Actually, I have already half done it on my overall demo site (http://pwdemo1.stonywebsites.co.uk/)

That already has a category system in place for products and some other useful bits. It is wonderfully dumb!

[panictree]

The problem with my idea of a "simpler" blog profile is that if I build it it's going to feel a bit wrong as it will throw some best practices out of the window to essentially "dumb it down", so if I were to attempt that then I might feel a littly dirty by the end of the process

Reading your comments, Pete, this article comes to mind.  

[MatthewSchenker]

Greetings,

panictree: wow, that article is really insightful. It's a great discussion point, especially as Web development advances and has ever greater potential.

Thanks for sharing!

Matthew

[panictree]

Greetings,

panictree: wow, that article is really insightful. It's a great discussion point, especially as Web development advances and has ever greater potential.

Thanks for sharing!

Matthew

You're welcome!

[raydale]

The problem with my idea of a "simpler" blog profile is that if I build it it's going to feel a bit wrong as it will throw some best practices out of the window to essentially "dumb it down", so if I were to attempt that then I might feel a littly dirty by the end of the process

The dumbed down 'dirty' approach is pretty much all I do!

Seriously, it serves as a good point and one that most designers with low to moderate development capabilities (I'm firmly in that bracket) wil be comfortable with. In fact if you look at most of the code samples in WordPress theming and tutorials, inline coding is pretty much the accepted standard. This bracket of people must represent a large section of those looking to use a CMS.

The fact that ProcessWire allows for this kind of approach and doesn't discriminate against it is a strong selling point in my view.

I'm currently putting a profile together for a website that I might 'generalise' and share - full with inline code.