Text and Texture Field in Modules often monolingual

[lisandi]

I would suggest that Module developers which create Fields in their Modules should implement an option to choose monolingual or multilingual or make their Modules by default multilingual (would be best)

Reason:

In Modules like the newsletter module  we have fields:

pw_newsletter_subscription_name with TYPE Text - better would be TextLanguage

the same for i.e. UserGroups module where the group_description is a Text and not a TextLanguage Field

Actually IMHO all Text and all Texture Fields could be even in the core TextLanguage and TextareaLanguage and PageTitleLanguage Fields. This would not at all create a big overhead or cause any problems when the Text / Textarea and Pagetitle fields would be simply multilingual by default. I would simply replace them completely and no more use the monolingual fields at all.

It would make module development and module usage in monolingual and multilingual settings much much easier - the same would apply to tutorials etc.

 

[Martijn Geerts]

I agree on making Code Internationalization in all modules. But the communication language for development is english so I disagree this for tutorials. 

[lisandi]

Hi sorry - probably wrong formulated.

It makes it easier in tutorials as you don't have to specify what kind of Text or TextLanguage Field etc you are using.

All Fields should be internationalised and this should be a standard in Processwire IMHO.

Right now you need to change all kind of fields to be Multilingual Fields instead and this would be no more necessary.

If you than talk in a Tutorial that you can choose another language from the Tab above the field, than it does not matter if it is an monolingual text or a multilingual TextLanguage as both would have the same features (as only one of them exists - actually the TextLanguage would exist etc.)

So Tutorials would be much less confusing no matter what language those tutorials will be written in - Mainly they are usually in English and German. But be aware as if you are living in a South East Asian Country you will know that Tutorials are often Translated to the local Language as the English Proficiency here is very bad!

Joomla is big here in Thailand as they provide lots of Tutorials and Drupal is coming since some Tutorials exist in Thai too. This will be valid for all kind of stuff which wants to get into the south east asian and also into the Chinese market by the way and This Market is HUGE!

 

[Martijn Geerts]

I read misunderstanding here in your story I guess. You make the assumption that ProcessWire is purely build for creating (multilingual) websites. And you make the assumption that most people need multi language from start. This is not the case. Putting multi language on every field would give some overhead. Not only from data perspective but also from database design perspective.  All needed tools for multi language are there when you choose for multi language, but the assumption that you would start multilingual is not there. And if chosen, pw has a very balanced system.

 

ProcessWire is a framework that that is perfectly suitable to build websites. But in fact it is way more than that. ProcessWire could be a planning system, it can be a restfull application, it could serve pages as if it were images or audiofiles or it could serve as an content provider for a flash application or an iPad App. This is an important part why PW is so flexible, this flexibility you won't see with many other CMS'es as their target is limited to websites.

[Martijn Geerts]

So Tutorials would be much less confusing no matter what language those tutorials will be written in - Mainly they are usually in English and German. But be aware as if you are living in a South East Asian Country you will know that Tutorials are often Translated to the local Language as the English Proficiency here is very bad!

Web developers should do them selfs a favour and learn the language what is most used in development. For me this means I have to learn from english written information and sadly for me it ain't dutch. Learning from your own language (if not english) is a big limitation in web development. Right now I don't speak a word Spanish, but I know for sure that I would have when all development stuff was done in Spanish.

In the end learning development from your own language when there is not enough written about it, is a limitation for your skills. Some people take that for granted, it's their choice.

[lisandi]

Hi Marjin You don't need to tell me to read English I can read English but if you want to get your feed on the ground in Asia you really do much better to provide multilinguality - even in Mobile Apps by the way!

The extensions I was talking about is UserGroups - it is definetly made for websites and NOT for things you mention. 
The other one which is also 100% made for websites - as a newsletter subscription field like this simply don't make sense on Mobile apps.
and if you have a look to the process wire framework you will realise that there are a lot of more modules which serve for websites only and those provide those text, texture, page title, image etc fields which are monolingual.

A Planing System which would be used in the majority of the IT world would need to be multilingual. 
the same applies to most iPad apps etc. Lingua Franca is in the head of most western developers but it does not suit all they actually would like to reach. 

The overhead you are talking about is really not so big to be mentioned ;-) stay realistic. It is a much bigger overhead to change all text to TextLanguage all TextArea to TextAreaLanguage Fields etc. This could be avoided by using multilingual ....Language fields in the modules instead of the monolingual one. 

If than - and only if!!! - there is one who needs to have a Newslettersubscription oder a UserGroupDescription only monolingual on his iPad App or Planning Tool etc .....
Simply have a look to what has been done with Processwire until now - check the references! Do you see one single iPad App or a Planner or something which points in that direction ;-)

Also with NEOS the new TYPO3 kid in theblog you can do all the stuff but to be honest - aren't there much better tools to do that? 

Concerning Tutorials I give you a BIG smile - simply come here or to Vietnam or to China or elsewhere in that area and try to teach them what you just wrote here. You will soon realise that it will not work at all, even not in Japan!

Here in South East Asia you have a market which is quite young and just starting. Have a look to the websites here! Most of them you will have problems to read. While you will be able to read Spanish or even discover some words from Finnish reading the word and the letter, people in South East Asia have a much much bigger challenge than any westerner to read English.

i.e. Your "Websedevlopers should do them selfs a favour and ..." paragraph looks translated like this:

Try to discover one single word! in Thai it is:
นักพัฒนาเว็บควรจะทำอย่างไรที่ตัวเองชอบและเรียนรู้ภาษาสิ่งที่ถูกนำมาใช้มากที่สุดในการพัฒนา สำหรับผมนี้หมายถึงผมต้องเรียนรู้จากข้อมูลที่เขียนภาษาอังกฤษและเศร้าสำหรับผมโลกที่ไม่ได้พูดภาษาดัตช์ การเรียนรู้จากเพียงภาษาของคุณเอง (ถ้าไม่ภาษาอังกฤษ) เป็นข้อ จำกัด ใหญ่ในการพัฒนาเว็บ ตอนนี้ผมไม่ได้พูดคำภาษาสเปน แต่ผมรู้ว่าผมจะมีเมื่อสิ่งที่พัฒนาทั้งหมดที่ทำในภาษาสเปน

in Simple Chinese it looks like that:
Web开发人员应该做自己一个忙，学习什么是使用最广泛的开发语言。对于我来说，这意味着我必须从英语书面资料来学习，可悲的是我的世界不是说荷兰语。只从自己的语言（如果不是英语）学习是网络发展的一大限制。现在我不会说一个字西班牙语，但我知道肯定我会在所有开发的东西是在西班牙完成。

in Khmer
អភិវឌ្ឍបណ្ដាញគួរធ្វើដោយខ្លួនគេពេញចិត្តនិងការរៀនភាសាអ្វីដែលត្រូវបានគេប្រើច្រើនបំផុតក្នុងការអភិវឌ្ឍ។ ចំពោះខ្ញុំរឿងនេះមានន័យថាខ្ញុំត្រូវរៀនពីភាសាអង់គ្លេសព័ត៌មានសរសេរនិងគួរឱ្យស្តាយសម្រាប់ខ្ញុំពិភពលោកនេះគឺមិនត្រូវនិយាយហូឡង់។ រៀនពីមានតែភាសាផ្ទាល់ខ្លួនរបស់អ្នក (ប្រសិនបើមិនជាភាសាអង់គ្លេស) គឺជាដែនកំណត់ដ៏ធំមួយក្នុងការអភិវឌ្ឍន៍បណ្ដាញ។ ឥឡូវនេះខ្ញុំមិននិយាយពាក្យអេស្ប៉ាញនោះទេប៉ុន្តែខ្ញុំដឹងច្បាស់ថាខ្ញុំនឹងមានពេលដែលវត្ថុទាំងអស់ត្រូវបានធ្វើការអភិវឌ្ឍនៅក្នុងភាសាអេស្ប៉ាញ។

in Hindi
वेब डेवलपर्स खुद को एक एहसान और सबसे विकास में प्रयोग किया जाता है क्या भाषा सीखना चाहिए. मेरे लिए यह मैं अंग्रेजी लिखित जानकारी से सीखने के लिए है और अफसोस की बात है मेरे लिए दुनिया डच बात नहीं है इसका मतलब है. केवल अपनी ही भाषा (अंग्रेजी नहीं अगर) से सीखना वेब विकास में एक बड़ी सीमा है. अभी मैं स्पेनिश एक शब्द नहीं बोलते, लेकिन मैं सभी विकास सामान स्पेनिश में किया गया था जब मैं होता कि पक्का पता है.

in Lao
ການພັດທະນາເວັບໄຊຕ໌ຄວນຈະເຮັດດ້ວຍຕົນເອງເງື່ອນໄຂແລະຮຽນຮູ້ພາສາທີ່ນໍາໃຊ້ຫຼາຍທີ່ສຸດໃນການພັດທະນາ. ສໍາລັບຂ້າພະເຈົ້ານີ້ຫມາຍຄວາມວ່າຂ້າພະເຈົ້າມີທີ່ຈະຮຽນຮູ້ຈາກຂໍ້ມູນຂ່າວສານລາຍລັກອັກສອນອັງກິດແລະ sadly ສໍາລັບຂ້າພະເຈົ້າໃນໂລກແມ່ນບໍ່ເວົ້າໂຮນລັງ. ການຮຽນຮູ້ຈາກພຽງແຕ່ພາສາຂອງທ່ານເອງ (ຖ້າຫາກວ່າບໍ່ອັງກິດ) ເປັນຂອບເຂດຈໍາກັດອັນໃຫຍ່ຫຼວງໃນການພັດທະນາເວັບໄຊຕ໌. ສິດທິໃນປັດຈຸບັນຂ້າພະເຈົ້າບໍ່ສາມາດເວົ້າຄໍາວ່າແອສປາໂຍນ, ແຕ່ຂ້າພະເຈົ້າຮູ້ວ່າສໍາລັບໃຫ້ແນ່ໃຈວ່າຂ້າພະເຈົ້າຈະມີເວລາທີ່ stuff ການພັດທະນາທັງຫມົດທີ່ໄດ້ເຮັດຢູ່ໃນແອສປາໂຍນ.

in Hongkong Chinese (traditional Chinese)
Web開發人員應該做自己一個忙，學習什麼是使用最廣泛的開發語言。對於我來說，這意味著我必須從英語書面資料來學習，可悲的是我的世界不是說荷蘭語。只從自己的語言（如果不是英語）學習是網絡發展的一大限制。現在我不會說一個字西班牙語，但我知道肯定我會在所有開發的東西是在西班牙完成。

in Vietnamese
Các nhà phát triển Web phải làm cho mình một ưu và học ngôn ngữ gì được sử dụng nhất trong phát triển. Đối với tôi điều này có nghĩa là tôi phải học hỏi từ thông tin bằng văn bản tiếng Anh và thật đáng buồn đối với tôi thế giới đang không nói Hà Lan. Học từ chỉ ngôn ngữ của bạn (nếu không phải tiếng Anh) là một hạn chế lớn trong phát triển web. Ngay bây giờ tôi không nói được một từ tiếng Tây Ban Nha, nhưng tôi biết chắc chắn rằng tôi sẽ có khi tất cả các công cụ phát triển đã được thực hiện tại Tây Ban Nha.

Burmese (Myanmar), Korean, Japanese, and all those Indian Languages.

This is a huge market which Joomla already discovered and WordPress as in those regions you have lots developers. One reason why Western Companies also outsource stuff here. Most of them don't speak English at all but are gorges developers. They learn either by learning by doing and the try and error principle or most of them actually read tutorials which are available in their languages. It is quite similar with the Popularity of the Bible. People sed it after it had been translated. Another approach you can see in the Muslim world were kids get taught arabic - even here.

One reason why TYPO3 or actually Open Source Software is so big in Germany and German spoken countries is that they have tutorials and books in German - the whole Processwire community would do themselves a huge favour not to knock out all those potential customers by focussing on a monolingual or iPad / Planner etc approach.

90% of the Usage of Processwire and I guess it is even 95% and much more is for websites ONLY! not even for an Intranet. Check out the references and try to find one of those kind of applications you have mentioned. Out of those nearly 90 - 100% Usage about 75% will be multilingual stuff involved - either in the backend as English (Default) and another language is used i.e. German or because the website has even a multilingual fronted. As a result out of that it would be much more economical for any web agency to have multilingual module fields by default! and for those who want to have a monolingual field perhaps a button to choose the monolingual way.

Even web applications which have been monolingual at first place get often translated and than need to be multilingual. 

In a monolingual approach the would mean that all fields need to be changed and the text in those fields often probably would need to be reassigned. 

In a multilingual approach you would simply install another language and here you go - enter your translated content anywhere you want.

Ryan wrote himself in another thread about textarea fields that he thinks multilingual and that his sites are multilingual so why not make it the default.

As a monolingual framework you cut off a whole bunch of opportunities - one reason why Drupal AND why WordPress introduced WPML ready and Drupal 8 which is multilingual. 
 

"In the end learning development from your own language when there is not enough written about it, is a limitation for your skills. Some people take that for granted, it's their choice."

This is for sure one of the reasons why there are so many Indian Developers ;-) Most have huge problems in English Proficiency! I don't think that it is a limitation of their skills. It is much more a limitation for the product you want to introduce to them - no matter it is an app for smartphones build on Processwire or a planner for an Intranet or most often a website, which is the most common case to use php at all.

[Martijn Geerts]

The extensions I was talking about is UserGroups - it is definetly made for websites and NOT for things you mention.

Actually i've the plan to build a rest-full service and likely will integrate the UserGroups module. These kind of services are not visually exposed, you won't see them in the Featured Sites section . Such a service could easily feed all content for native web apps for a variety of different of devices. So I don't get why this should be for websites only. The next thing what I think is curious is that you mentioned the UserGroups module because It is beta and it is fully multilingual programmed. I can't speak for Teppo, Antti & Nik but I think they would love to see alot of translations coming from who ever want to make translations.

ProcessWire is not a website buildtool, it's a framework and a tool to manage content build on top of it. And you can build with it what you wish, it doesn't dictate that you should build a website with it and it doesn't tell you must use multi language. I know a few tools that are build by community members that are never exposed to the internet, it's not unlikely that that is just a tip of the iceberg. And multi-language support in ProcessWire is complete and very balanced. But you have to click few times more to activate it. 

I know there is a big market, but how to support that?

You need a very active member or members to translate it all to 1 other language, let alone the 15 most used languages or so. That's how opensource works. Someone out of china love to see everything written in Chinese and he starts. Somehow he or she has loads of time and working on it day and night. The probability that someone stands up grows as the CMS grows, but PW is tiny in comparison to the other systems you mentioned. Thereby PW is way more by developed for developers. 

btw, I love Thailand have been there a lot.

[lisandi]

Thanks for you example Martijn

The userGroup Model which you want to use in your Rest. Application. Now take the example and make it available so that somebody who is Thai can enter the user Group description in Thai and in English and probably also in another language as in their company they have a Foreign Owner but only Thai Staff which is bad in English but which finally has to manage the content and stuff. You will simply fail as the UserGroup Description Field is a monolingual field and needs first tonbe changed to an multilingual field manually.

It is NOT about the coding or labels etc. it is about what you fill into that fields and those need to be multilingual by default. Now extend your service as a phuket Guide which should serve many mobile apps in different languages. But you want to maintain it in one restfull application. Again you would need multilingual fields to put the content in.

Or take a Bank which has a mobile app - well they have a chooser for the language and of course they maintain the data again in one application. It does not matter if it is exposed to the web or not if the data inside your service or app or whatshowever needs to be multilingual.

The real power of an application is its possibility to be multilingual. Mono stuff is out there already a lot which does its job much easier or even better than PW would even be capable to. It does not make sense to reinvent wheels. DeFacto as I mentioned already PW is used mostly for websites - if you like it or not!

By the way we translated with our company TYPO3 100% it took us one month. since we had translated TYPO3 to Thai Language we had significant more thai developers interested in that system. they started to build websites with it and loved it. They build websites for customers which made them much more aware about TYPO3 at all here and also we had much more customers.

It is simply a fact.

[Martijn Geerts]

I simply don't get a few thing you've mentioned or I don't understand why you think like that.

ProcessWire is framework with a system that can manage content build on top of it, but you want it to be a website mange tool. ProcessWire is perfectly suitable for your task and in the majority it is used like that. But PW will not downgrade to a level where it becomes a website manage tool.

 

You're free to use as much languages if you wish but you have to click a few times more. When the language is not there, it is up-to-you to find someone to translate it.