kathep Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 @adrian Why, thank you. And it's Katherine, not Kathy Yeah, let's talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Oops - very sorry about that - I should have looked back at your site to check before making that faux pas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kathep Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 Heh heh. No problem. It's a common one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qtguru Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 @kathep Usability is of course a part of design, but for me it's much related to functionality than to look and feel, which is what I meant to convey. I've yet to find a framework which doesn't restrict me in styling while still doing a great job of providing solid building blocks for the web. OOCSS or inuitcss kinda go in a way which I can see really useful. But something like bootstrap never appealed to me. Never heard of OOCSS but I use Stylus and LESS (CSS Pre-processors) not really a designer just a developer who can manage to design. I think Bootstrap 3 is awesome. @Kathep I didn't mean you shouldn't use it I meant, if you already know HTML then its no problem as it would increase productivity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostKobrakai Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 @LostKobrakai Ever heard of Aesthetic Usability Effect, Scanning, or Visual Hierarchy? 'Look and feel' is central to usability. They cannot be separated in practice (although people do it in theory all the time). I know these, but I don't think one can pack such things in something called framework. For me these are based on project-per-project decicions. Take for example visual hierarchy. On this site (http://www.mediamarkt.de/), there's a big solid red slider on the top. And it has to be bright red, as the whole page is full of things courting for attention. In stark contrast something like my portfolio (http://kobrakai.de/). A basic headline just double the base font size draws the attention. I honestly can't see how frameworks could help me with this much more than a h1–h6 hierarchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostKobrakai Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 @Sephiroth Both css "frameworks" I mentioned have nothing to do with preprocessors other than plain using it. It's more about finding out how to abstract patterns in websites which can be reused as good as possible. The most well-known example would be the media object, which is shown here: http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2010/06/25/the-media-object-saves-hundreds-of-lines-of-code/ I don't want to copy the whole story into this forum post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kathep Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 I honestly can't see how frameworks could help me with this much more than a h1–h6 hierarchy. I understand your point, and I understand that you don't see a point to visual rules in frameworks. That doesn't mean that there isn't a point though. There are standard principles of color use, color combinations, contrast, typography, font matching, spacing, and composition that, when incorporated into frameworks, can save the discerning designer a lot of time and effort. It's ok that individuals may not value these things, but there are a lot of people who do. I do agree with you that frameworks are not plug-and-play in terms of 'look and feel' - but then they are not meant to be. It's fine with me if there is a visual style in place that I change for every site. @Kathep I didn't mean you shouldn't use it I meant, if you already know HTML then its no problem as it would increase productivity. *slaps forehead* Oh, I see! Yes, agreed. These tools are really better for people with good front end coding knowledge to start with. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benbyf Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I like to know what code is going into a site for optimisation, and even find myself writing my own image sliders, tool tips etc.. I make it for my specific case or site without introducing a HUGE framework and having the two hold problem of bloat and writing code "their" way (as im never interested in learning a framework when I can learn to do it myself). I've used Dreamweaver, Macaw and someothers in the past and feel, though handy for mockups, I would never use on a live site due to the lack of confidence in the code they produce. Also I'm always interested in learning new things and trying new styles so a framework doesnt make sense for me in that way too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kathep Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 @benbyf Thanks for sharing your process! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manlio Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Thanks Kathy for starting this thread. I'm really interested in new way to speed up the workflow in an intuitive way. I didn't knew "Blocs" but I have tested in the past Pinegrow that seems more mature today. I'm more design oriented and I find frameworks and these tools to be invaluable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kathep Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 @manilo, yes, me too! i'm interested to hear you found Pinegrow good to use. Perhaps I will test it out some day. BTW, my name is Katherine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manlio Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Sorry Katherine for mispelling your name (btw my name is Manlio ). I will investigate more on some of these softwares and report here my opinion on that. Ciao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogo Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Manlio, you know that if you don't change your avatar until the 60th post, the forum software will change it irreversibly to a random spice girl. You're dangerously close to it... 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kathep Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 Ah, thanks Manlio. I look forward to hearing your report! @diogo, I heard it was all five spice girls together... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazzyweb Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Regarding frameworks I found this video. Are CSS Frameworks Bad? I agree with a lot of what he says. Also the point of Speed Speed Speed... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kathep Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 Great video @dazzyweb! Thanks for sharing. I think me, you and the guy on the video are on the same page regarding frameworks. I LOVE semantic best practise, but speed wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrganizedFellow Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I must admit that I have moved away from using fully fledged frameworks and instead have created myself a sass based toolkit. I recently gave SASS/SCSS a whirl. You've gotta share some of your toolkit. It would be neat to see how other newbs are tackling their file/folder structures. Of course, you can also invest some time in creating snippets, setting up macros or using toolkits like emmet.io in your code editor. You can build sites pretty quickly that way. Joss mentioned a few of these above — if you haven't already, checkout bourbon, neat, bitters, refills. Those thoughtbot folks make good stuff.-------------------------------------------- I've really been liking Neat. I tried Susy just a few days ago, but found it confusing. Neat has been ... well, neat! I've added some refill elements to my site, now I'm going through little by little, learning some SCSS and customizing the output. I just learned how to minify my css, so that's cool sass --watch styles.scss:styles.min.css --style compressed Never heard of OOCSS but I use Stylus and LESS (CSS Pre-processors) not really a designer just a developer who can manage to design. I think Bootstrap 3 is awesome. @Kathep I didn't mean you shouldn't use it I meant, if you already know HTML then its no problem as it would increase productivity. Then you'll really like SMACSS https://smacss.com/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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