ryan

Need a new mouse

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My Logitech MX Revolution mouse is on it's last leg... it's outputting double and triple clicks when it should do single clicks, causing all kinds of unintended problems in my workflow. Apparently this is a known issue and just means the mouse is done.  :'(

I went to go buy a new one, but found out they no longer sell it. Instead, they've replaced it with something called the Performance MX (same price, less features). Unfortunately that mouse has no thumb wheel, which reduces the number of button actions by 3 for me (I use the wheel to handle all of the OS X Expose window stuff, and am totally dependent upon it). So this Performance MX seems to be out of consideration.

Looked at getting an Apple Magic Mouse, but sounds like this mouse is great to look a pain otherwise. Though it's still tempting because I can use the SteerMouse app to get all the button actions I need out of it (though with gestures rather than buttons). Now looking at Logitech G700, which is technically a gaming mouse (I'm not into games) but seems to provide all the programmable buttons I would need. Not OS X compatible, but again the SteerMouse app would let me program it. So am leaning towards this G700.

Since we all do similar work here, I'm guessing we have similar needs for this kind of stuff. Anyone else found a really good programmable (preferably wireless) mouse that helps you work faster? I'm going to head to the store this evening because I can't get much work done with my MX Revolution now limping.

Thanks,

Ryan

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By now you should've got some mouse already, but I couldn't resist - I confess I've been a bit of a mice nerd in the past ^^

Nowadays I use mostly the trackpad since I really dig gestures with Better Touch Tool.

I have a Logitech MX 1100 that's still perfect after a couple of years.

I like a lot the third rubberized button for the thumb on the side, while I've never liked the Revolution's side wheel.

It's out of production since long but you can find many still sealed on eBay for cheap.

I see Logitech does the Performance MX now, which looks like an updated MX1100, with better buttons.

The G700 you mention seems very good, it has a very similar shape to the MX 1100, doesn't have the rubber button, but the other extra buttons seem much improved, they are tiny and difficult to reach on the MX. Maybe there are a tad too many for comfort use, but they seem well sized and placed.

Anyway, gaming mice is the way to go if you want a good one, they are ultraprecise with great buttons and wheels.

Razer makes great ones, if you can get past the garish look.

Imperator, Lachesis and DeathAdder (erm...) are prolly the best for work purpose.

SteelSeries also are very good and look more sober, the best are the Ikari and the Kai which has buttons on both sides.

But really you should get this =D

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For coding, I've only ever used VIM so the mouse definitely isn't applicable to that part of work. :) But everything else I do is pretty mouse heavy, especially Photoshop and just general getting around the OS, browsing, etc.

The MX 1100 looks like a great mouse, but like the Performance MX, it has no thumb wheel. I'm a little pissed at Logitech for just putting this on 1 mouse and then never doing it again... that thumbwheel is so tied into my workflow. For instance:

  • Roll Forward = Exposé all windows from the current application
  • Roll backward = Exposé all windows from all applications
  • Push down = Exposé desktop (hiding all windows temporarily)

So with the MX revolution, I can very easily jump to the desktop (push wheel), grab an icon and hold onto it (left click), push wheel again to get back and generally just jump around everywhere really easily (roll forward/back) while simultaneously holding onto some files, scrolling some window (top wheel) and throwing them somewhere... in one shot from the mouse. Maybe that sounds a bit cryptic, but it's one of those things that's simple to watch and hard to explain, but I do it countless times a day (as it sounds most people with the same mouse do). Having it in a wheel rather than multiple buttons just makes it so much simpler and more intentional. Strangely you can't do anything like this with Apple's mice. Though you can program it with SteerMouse to at least do some of it.

Abu I actually did check out that Razer naga (with an entire numeric keypad on it), but couldn't find anywhere that I could actually test it out. I had tried Razer mice at stores many years ago and they never fit my hand quite right, so despite my attraction to all those buttons, I'm a little scared that it won't fit quite right.

I ended up getting the G700, and am just charging it now. Has a similar feel to the MX Revolution. Lacks the thumb wheel, but adds several new buttons I didn't have before too. I'm sure it won't be quite as good as the MX Revolution, but hopefully will get close enough.

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Here in Russia we still have Logitech MX Revolution in stores. Never used such mouses though.

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That's interesting that they are still selling it in Russia. Sure wish they were here too. Although, so far this G700 is working out pretty well so far.

You guys don't know what you are missing with these 10+ button, geared flywheel mice. :) They are a small price to pay for the productivity they bring. Then again, I'm using OS X where there is always a mess of windows and icons everywhere, and–as a former long time PC user–this makes it possible to manage the mess. Maybe it's not as useful in Windows these days, I don't know. Ironically, these mice are Windows-only and don't even support OS X... I have to use 3rd party tools to make them work.

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I already had (not for long) a mouse with a few additional buttons and a side scrollwheel, I could never get used to it: too much things to remember, and too many actions triggered unexpectedly, because if one finger slipped a little bit from its supposed position, bam it clicked on the wrong button !

I don't know anything about Macs and OS X, but I use Linux from time to time, and there are some nice shortcuts to manage the desktop under the 2 main composers - KWin and Compiz - like bumping some side/corner of the screen to have a Scale or Exposé display.

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Ryan, sounds like powerful workflow. At work I use Win7 and try to keep n. of windows in minimum. On top of that I have two big monitors (1680x1050, if I remember correctly) - main window is landscape and other one is in portrait mode. I use second monitor mainly for browser, and main monitor keeps editor (komodo edit), shell windows, photoshop (if needed) etc... I like to run all apps on full screen mode. I am also pretty eager to close programs that I don't need, and clean open tabs from my browser at quite a regular interval.

Oh, and I'll got my first mac (from work) soon, I will test drive that on next to my Dell workhorse.

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I also liked to work full screen in Windows, and that's always been one of the annoyances about Macs for me. There isn't really such thing as full screen on a Mac. It's especially a pain in something like Photoshop where you try to click on a palette and you accidentally click a little outside it and find yourself in another application (and this happens ALL the time). There are positives to this setup too (drag stuff between apps), but I've been using Macs for 5+ years and have never quite gotten used to this aspect... I feel more disorganized on Macs than PCs. On the other hand, I've not had any kind of major instability, crash, virus or anything of that sort in those 5+ years, and I might reboot my computer once every 3 months, if that (like for a thunderstorm).

We stopped using Windows years ago because we discovered all kinds of spyware and a keylogger on my wife's Windows XP computer, despite a plethora of virus and spyware scanners. We had to change all our bank account information and passwords, etc. After that, I just decided I was done with the Windows platform. So even if I don't love everything about the way Macs work, I do love that I'm running on unix since I spend much of the day in VIM. And I value not having to think as much about OS security. But ultimately, computers were best pre-Windows (and pre-mouse) era when we all worked at the DOS and unix command line. :)

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all kinds of spyware and a keylogger on my wife's Windows XP computer, despite a plethora of virus and spyware scanners.

This has much more to do with wives than windows ;) Exactly same thing happened here :D

But gotta say that I run my personal XP computer without any single virus or adware without virus scanners for about 5 years (only run scanners now and then, never found nothing) - just using windows firewall. Although XP had the bad habit to slow down and required reformatting every two years. And now with Win7 I have had no single crash or any kind of problems at all - it really is a huge leap forward. I only use MS Security Essentials now, and it never disturbs my work. At workplace we have all kind of F-Secure etc running and those are worst crapware there is.

I tend to hear much more crying and whining from mac camp than from win camp nowadays (probably because most of my computer geek friends are in mac camp :)).

But more and more OS is turning into "that strange loading icon before you can open your web browser". I think Google might be on something with their Chrome OS - although they might be five years too early.

Nostalgia trip: I started using computers probably in early 90's. I remember Dos, memory problems and especially the Norton Commander. Still prefer dir over ls :D

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Yes, I think you are right that it has more to do with wives than Windows. :) I actually never had any security problems with my own Windows-based computer. But I did start to not trust my computer so much, and this was about the time that Microsoft was starting to be thought of as "evil" (now it's Apple). And the Macs were shiny and metallic. I only stick with a Mac because it's running on unix and it can run Photoshop, and that's the platform I bought Photoshop in… no other reason. Oh, and I also want people to accept me in the coffee shop (just kidding!). But the security concerns are what made me switch. I've always been paranoid about security (perhaps a good trait when it comes to CMSs), and my wife's computer blowing up was the end of Windows for us. I suspect I would probably like where Windows is now.

I still prefer "dir" over "ls" as well (what does "ls" mean anyways?) Just thinking about "dir" brings me back to the days of DOS. We all knew Finland very well as the greatest country in the world because that's where Future Crew was from, the Assembly demo party and so on. I used to spend my entire income in high school ($300-$400/month USD) per month on long distance phone fees downloading demos and mods from Starport BBS in Finland, and others. So that my BBS had the latest/greatest stuff. I'm definitely nostalgic for the pre-internet DOS days, great times.

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There isn't really such thing as full screen on a Mac. It's especially a pain in something like Photoshop where you try to click on a palette and you accidentally click a little outside it and find yourself in another application (and this happens ALL the time). There are positives to this setup too (drag stuff between apps), ...

You can drag things between apps even if you apps are running in fullscreen mode under Windows, there are at least 2 ways:

1- drag your stuff over the icon of the target app in the taskbar, that app will come to the front and then you can drop your stuff

2- drag your stuff and while holding the mouse button, do Alt+Tab to switch to your target app, then drop...

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I know that you can achieve pretty much all the same things in the different windowing systems (and good tips, btw). I was just trying to say that the way the windowing system works in OS X is somewhat annoying, to me. I like to have the option of being fully focused in an app and not be able to see everything else (or the desktop) behind it... I get plenty of accidental clicks to the wrong app in OS X. But there are just as many people that have a preference for the way it works in OS X too. I guess it just depends what you grew up on... I grew up on Windows, so still have a slight preference for some of the ways that it works, even if overall I prefer to use OS X–not because it's mac, but because it's unix. I really disliked Macs before OS X (like OS 9 and before, which I had to use at my job but always snuck in my Windows notebook).

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Maybe that sounds a bit cryptic, but it's one of those things that's simple to watch and hard to explain, but I do it countless times a day (as it sounds most people with the same mouse do). Having it in a wheel rather than multiple buttons just makes it so much simpler and more intentional.

yep I've basically the same setup on mine (thumb rubber button -> show desktop, side edge buttons -> exposé and spaces). I couldn't get confortable with the Revolution's side wheel so I went for the MX even if it has just half the side triggers (3, so I have to leave out app exposé).

The G700 looks perfect with those 4 d-pad-like side buttons, if they're easy to press.

Abu I actually did check out that Razer naga (with an entire numeric keypad on it), but couldn't find anywhere that I could actually test it out. I had tried Razer mice at stores many years ago and they never fit my hand quite right, so despite my attraction to all those buttons, I'm a little scared that it won't fit quite right.

lol please no, that thing is way over the top, it reminds me of that hideous "open office" mouse =)

I also liked to work full screen in Windows, and that's always been one of the annoyances about Macs for me. There isn't really such thing as full screen on a Mac. It's especially a pain in something like Photoshop where you try to click on a palette and you accidentally click a little outside it and find yourself in another application (and this happens ALL the time). There are positives to this setup too (drag stuff between apps), but I've been using Macs for 5+ years and have never quite gotten used to this aspect... I feel more disorganized on Macs than PCs.

Ryan which version of Photoshop do you have? In CS4 & 5 you can configure it to have a multiple document interface (big container with all documents and palettes confined inside), just like the Windows flavour.

Anyway in general in any version you can just press "F" to get a fullscreen canvas which is basically the same thing, single-document oriented.

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Just to digress a bit...

At work I've gone back and forth thru Mac OS 8-9, Win2000, Jaguar, WinXP, Leopard-Snow Leopard, and some Win7…  to put it short, I think the document interface approach MS took with Win 95 (both MDI and SDI) is inferior to Apple classical free windows and top menubar, to me it's more ankward and limited in many respects.

Anyway in MS implementation it's always been very easy to cycle thru all open window (with alt+tab), to retrieve any windows (thanks to the taskbar, which was ugly and didn't scale much but worked well), and to "isolate" applications with floating palettes, thanks to the MDI and the prominence given to a standardized and predictable "maximized" mode.

On Macs those things have always been somewhat troublesome, with ever changing and variously underdone or obscure features.

For example, on classic Mac OS there simply wasn't a command to cycle thru windows (with alt+tab merely switching applications like on OS X). OS X introduced a couple (for cycling windows of the foreground app), but one is only available in some random Apple apps, and the other is a rather obscure shortcut (ctrl+f4, or even fn+ctrl+f4) that's only advertised in the keyboard shortcuts section of the System Preferences. Many people discover that and remap it to something more handy, other never know, and for users coming from Windows that can be maddening.

Hiding and retrieving single windows, and not entire apps, was another weakness. Classic OS had just that weird "roll window up in the title bar" feature; OS X minimize-to-dock has been a pain right until Snow Leopard somewhat fixed it (minimize to dock icon and show on the bottom in exposé) taking a hint from Windows 7.

It's no coincidence that one of the most boasted new features Apple introduced was Exposé, because before Tiger getting a sense of open windows was quite a mess.

The MDI approach is plainly absent, unless some application implements that by itself, like Adobe ones.

That was by design, but sometimes it's useful and it wouldn't be hard to recreate that under Mac OS approach.

Pre-OS X there was a Finder preferences to hide desktop when the Finder was in background - icons were hidden and the empty desktop didn't registered clicks. OS X ditched that, and so there're a dozen or so utilities that reimplement that in some manner.

Fullscreen hasn't been standardized until Lion, but that wouldn't have been such a problem if they didn't botch such a seemingly simple thing like the green "+" button, which is just unpredictably thorn between maximising and resizing to fit.

Setting a shortcut or something to always maximise windows is handy, I do it with Better Touch Tool.

Speaking of which, it's a godsend of an utility.

I mentioned I use mostly the trackpad (mouse only for design and audio app), that was forced since I wander a lot on foreign cramped desks, but now I just prefer it - the ability to tweak default gestures and add any kind of weird combo makes it way more powerful than any mouse to me. Think I'm gonna get that magic trackpad thingy for external keyboard and desktop.

Things like remapping four-finger lateral swipe to switching spaces, having a pop-up list of all windows with a three-finger tap, or ctrl+alt+ two finger drag to resize windows... it may sound a mess and probably is, but to me it makes things very speedy and natural, and helps a lot since most of the times I've only the cramped macbook's 15" screen at my disposal, which means lot of continous window switching and rearranging.

For example, in tabbed apps like browsers or text editors, I've got three-finger horizontal swipes remapped from "back" and "forward" to switching tab.

I also have three-fingers vertical swipes mapped to cycle windows shortcuts.

So when I browse I just flick three fingers around to move thru tabs and windows, like a matrix, and that's really a snap.

Btw, one feature of Windows 7 I really like is windows snapping, and Better Touch Tool clone that too.

All in all, this is to say that in my experience OS X may feel ankward with its defaults but it can be well extended and partially customized with little third party apps that just work (while on Windows adding on the GUI features is quite a nasty mess of bloated utilities). For me it took a little time but now I just feel way more speedy and organized than on Windows  - and that isn't just about the GUI, there's a lot of little gems like clipboard managers, GTD stuff...

oh well sry for the digression =D

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Thanks for your thoughts on this, I think this was a good digression! I've never really taken much time to customize OS X and perhaps that's the problem. But don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy with the platform, but I'm one that was always happier at a command prompt than a windowing system. Though it's difficult to do graphic design from a command prompt. :)

I'm running Photoshop CS3 on OS X 10.5.8. I have a Snow Leopard CD sitting in front of me, so probably going to install that over  the weekend (given that it's a prerequisite to getting Lion). I'm running on a quad core (2x 2.8 ghz xeon) Mac Pro with 6 gigs of memory. I've had it for a few years and it used to seem so fast, but now it just seems unbearably slow... for example, typing a URL into the Firefox 5 address bar appears a few seconds after I type it. That kind of slowness is consistent across pretty much everything (though Firefox is a little worse). Yet looking at the results of 'top' I'm barely pushing the CPU or the memory. I'm going to start by upgrading the OS and hope for the best.

I'm tempted to give the touchpad a try, as I quite like using the gestures on my MBP.

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I've never really taken much time to customize OS X and perhaps that's the problem.

tbh, I think sticking with the defaults as much as possible is a better way to focus on what you're at your workstation for - working...  =)

I tried a pletora of stuff during the years but mostly it was for a little fixation of mine and as a sort of hobby...

now I very much limit myself on that but some adjustment is just necessary, OS X user interface is quite well thought and refined but the default setup suffers from Apple iconic obsession for simplicity, the so called "flatland" approach.

The downside is that Apple tends to alter quite a lot of things in major revisions, so when I upgrade I've to spend time to figure out what of my configurations can be reapplied without breaking some important default.

But don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy with the platform, but I'm one that was always happier at a command prompt than a windowing system. Though it's difficult to do graphic design from a command prompt. :)

I've a sort of an envy for that, I've never been quite a shell type - I can't even properly touch type after so many years...

Being more keyboard centric, do you like stuff like quicksilver/launchbar or just don't care?

I'm running on a quad core (2x 2.8 ghz xeon) Mac Pro with 6 gigs of memory. I've had it for a few years and it used to seem so fast, but now it just seems unbearably slow... for example, typing a URL into the Firefox 5 address bar appears a few seconds after I type it. That kind of slowness is consistent across pretty much everything (though Firefox is a little worse). Yet looking at the results of 'top' I'm barely pushing the CPU or the memory. I'm going to start by upgrading the OS and hope for the best.

yep I also had this sensation of a rather constant degrade of performance over time on Leopard, but I shrudded it off as the typical computer user performance hypochondria. But at times it felt cospicuous, like being back at Windows 98 =D

Whatever, after a couple of years it started to have random manifest beachballing behaviour even under very light loads, and after a while it started to have serious issues, like systemUIserver eating up all the cpu and hanging. It was the first time since years that I had to clean-reinstall an os without any catastrophic cause - must be said anyway that the laptop hd smart state had reached "pre-fail", maybe that has something to do with it :°)

Now I'm on 10.6 and things are way better so far. Browsers anyway are still a PITA, all of them are way snappier on Windows.

Firefox is especially bad, there have to be something with their codebase, as it's quite slow on Windows too, but the others aren't that better. Buh.  

For sure, they all keep eating ginormous amounts of ram despite the claims of substantial improvements at every release.

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Being more keyboard centric, do you like stuff like quicksilver/launchbar or just don't care?

I would say that it's not about being keyboard centric at all. Just a side effect of starting on computers back before there were windowing interfaces. Grew up on a terminal interface rather than a window interface. :) For me, it doesn't translate to a preference for keyboard commands in a windowing interface at all.

Whatever, after a couple of years it started to have random manifest beachballing behaviour even under very light loads, and after a while it started to have serious issues, like systemUIserver eating up all the cpu and hanging. It was the first time since years that I had to clean-reinstall an os without any catastrophic cause - must be said anyway that the laptop hd smart state had reached "pre-fail", maybe that has something to do with it :°)

I better check my hd smart state then! But it sounds like my computer is running relatively well compared to what you just described. I'm not going to attempt a from-scratch install with Snow Leopard unless I have to.

Despite feeling a little slow, my computer is incredibly reliable... it never crashes. And I only reboot once every few months, and not for stability reasons. I suppose I can't complain.

Now I'm on 10.6 and things are way better so far. Browsers anyway are still a PITA, all of them are way snappier on Windows.

Unless they are running on a Windows virtual machine on your Mac. :) The browsers I run in WinXP on my virtual machines are dog slow... But maybe that's because I'm giving WinXP as little memory and HD as possible. :)

Firefox is especially bad, there have to be something with their codebase, as it's quite slow on Windows too, but the others aren't that better. Buh

Ironic given that Firefox become popular as a result of being no-bloat, lean and mean. Now it's Chrome that carries that honor. But I still love Firefox for it's source viewer, Firebug, and various addons that are really hard to beat.

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Posted (edited)
I prefer  Logitech 502.

The Logitech G502 packed with a lots of high-quality features so let’s look at all the pros and advantages below:
  • Logitech has vastly improved the implementation of their spinning wheel compared to the previous models, so the free spin mode is now super fast.
  • On the bottom of the mouse you’ve got slippy feet rated for a massive 250 kilometers of travel distance before they’re supposed to wear out and a darn good PixArt PMW 3366 optical sensor powered by a 32-bit ARM processor.
  • The sensor goes from 200 to 12,000 DPI and 50 DPI increments without any interpolation, extrapolation or other tomfoolery.
Edited by adrian
Removed link - not really appropriate for a first post, especially since it's a review site and not the Logitech site.

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Haha, I might as join in too :)

I use the Logitech G600 MMO Mouse exclusively. Why? Because of its programmable feature, you can program your most go-to keyboard shortcuts into it.
It takes a little time to program it in, and more time to find a layout that suits you but just take your time with it.

It's definitely worth it IMHO as you can eliminate all keyboard shortcuts making you more efficient.

https://www.logitechg.com/en-us/product/g600-mmo-gaming-mouse

The best thing is you can upload someone else's mouse profile and use it so if anyone is interested in my PHPStorm layout, give me a shout.

Before the MMO mouse was released, I used a Logitech G13 Keyboard for the same.
http://support.logitech.com/en_us/product/g13-advanced-gameboard

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2 hours ago, FrancisChung said:

It's definitely worth it IMHO as you can eliminate all keyboard shortcuts making you more efficient.

How long have you been using this mouse for? Do you really prefer using those mouse buttons over keyboard buttons?

I'm always looking for better efficiency and ergonomics, but I've always found the mouse to be the least ergonomic component of computers. I find I get mouse fatigue much faster than keyboard fatigue (the scroll-wheel in particular is a killer). Those 12 thumb buttons are interesting, but I would have thought that going from using all ten fingers/thumbs on a well-spaced keyboard to doing more work using a single thumb in a tiny space would be less comfortable and more prone to RSI.

And for coding, isn't using the keyboard unavoidable? If the keyboard is unavoidable, wouldn't it be most efficient to do as much as possible with the keyboard and as little as possible with the mouse?

Genuinely curious because I've never used a mouse like this before.

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On 16.3.2018 at 4:30 AM, Robin S said:

I'm always looking for better efficiency and ergonomics, but I've always found the mouse to be the least ergonomic component of computers

A friend of mine is very happy with this one:

81bbTfNDdiL._SX522_.jpg81PijTDTcDL._SX522_.jpg

http://amzn.to/2Dz2zRB

I think it's an interesting concept and I'll give it a try :)

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