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WordPress is the BEST!


Tom.
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At giving me an absolute headache! Sorry for the clickbait title, I just need some emotional support. 

Currently working on a website using WordPress as we needed eCommerce and their current platform is WordPress, didn't make sense to change them to a platform such as SnipCart that would take a percentage of their sales.

WordPress is horrible! WooCommerce is horrible! 

ProcessWire things make sense, you only have to read the documentation for like a second and everything makes sense. WordPress, I'm sieving though WP_Query, the_post, the_loop, the_row, the_title. And stuff like getting an image size like $image['sizes']['large'] then in other cases you have to do $post->the_title() sometimes you do the_title(). Now I'm working with WooCommerce. the_type() returns "Simple" the_price() returns nothing, printing what $product is returning and everything is there. I'm going to pull my hair out.  ??

 

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1 hour ago, Tom. said:

WordPress is horrible! WooCommerce is horrible! 

Why? It is a very nice Plug&Pray platform.

1 hour ago, Tom. said:

WP_Query

Oh well, yes, that is a skeleton in the cupboard. It is such a bad example of "simplifying" queries that even plugin developers are rolling out their replacements, eg:
https://toolset.com/documentation/customizing-sites-using-php/post-relationships-api/

or WooCommerce which nowadays is the same as Automattic:
https://woocommerce.wordpress.com/2018/07/17/woocommerce-custom-product-tables-beta/
"This builds on the investment we made in 3.0 which introduced Data Stores and CRUD functionality that provides a uniform way of accessing a store’s data regardless of where it is saved."

and even the core WordPress team:
http://v2.wp-api.org/

Hordes of talented developers are trying the get rid of the underlying crap but all in different directions. It will be interesting to see how it will turn out...

In the meantime, the main effort is to replace the back-end:
https://wordpress.org/gutenberg/

However, I have not read anything about getting rid of all the other junk WordPress has in big quantities.

BTW, WordPress is the winner in another area: http://blog.insight.sensiolabs.com/2014/11/04/technical-debt-relevant-projects.html

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4 hours ago, Tom. said:

I just need some emotional support.

Here's some emotional support for you:

WP_Query

Don't get me started... If you want to get anything done which is not just a blog, you have to install ACF Pro (for custom fields). The actual query syntax/options you have at your disposal, is a nightmare. Same goes for the documentation. There's nothing "pro" in it, or about it.

I was once forced to do a site with WP, where it would have been simple to display/write relationship-based pages/queries in WP, and it turned out a mess. Did it work in the end? - yes. Did I get gastric ulcer? Probably.

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Yeah keep on wp trolling, it feels good I know. But lets get real for a change, it's 2018 and not 2010 any more when wp was total crap. Plugins and safety have been improved since then. I know people who deliver websites faster than I do and make more money with wp than I do ! All they do is go to themeforest or envato and search for a cool looking template with forms, mail, client base and the whole shebang for around 50 or 80 dollar. It takes them less then a week to set it up and then sell it somewhere between 500 and 1500 dollar. And clients like the wp admin because it only takes simple mouse clicks for them to edit a wp site with new text, pics or prices. How I found out all this ? Simply because I get called by offices, real estates, photographers, etc. because their webmaster/developer took off, disappeared or they ended up with agreement conflicts. They need somebody to take over. No backups were made for half a year, cpanel access has gone, yearly domain registry  has gone, etc. All they have left is the wp-admin login. So the more I got involved the more I started to see what is going on in wp land. The reason why I stick to pw ? Because working with wp dumbs you down to a copy and paster - drag and dropper. Working with pw upgrades your skills and you learn to webcode. But really, when it comes to working hours and making money, wp is the better choice.

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5 hours ago, pwired said:

webmaster/developer took off, disappeared or they ended up with agreement conflicts. They need somebody to take over. No backups were made for half a year, cpanel access has gone, yearly domain registry  has gone, etc.

So let's call it a scam as we should not call it web development. Playing dirty tricks is one thing and being honest and helpful is another one. I always stick to the latter. Sure, I will never become a billionaire with my "silly" attitude but at least no hordes of angry people are chasing me my whole life. Instead, I have a bunch of friends who know they can trust me.

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7 hours ago, pwired said:

I know people who deliver websites faster than I do and make more money with wp than I do ! All they do is go to themeforest or envato and search for a cool looking template with forms, mail, client base and the whole shebang for around 50 or 80 dollar. It takes them less then a week to set it up and then sell it somewhere between 500 and 1500 dollar.

Oh yeah... I love those super creative full stack and full service brand entrepreneur happy guys agencies that sell websites this way and claiming they are the best in the market doing highly coughstomized websites and brand building. I know agencies that charge five-figure numbers for 80-dollar-theme-based sites.

7 hours ago, pwired said:

But really, when it comes to working hours and making money, wp is the better choice.

Only if you do basic website jobs without any real custom data. Pages and posts slightly customized with visual page builders but that's it.

2 hours ago, szabesz said:

I have a bunch of friends who know they can trust me.

A win-win situation for both sites. 

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Quote

So let's call it a scam as we should not call it web development. Playing dirty tricks is one thing and being honest and helpful is another one.

Big businesses and corporations can easily afford a 60$/hour pro web developer who knows how to code. Or they simply have a webdeveloper working 9 to 5 for them. Economy isn´t what it used to be so you can't really blame small offices/businesses for attracting people who can do it cheap and quick for them. Often these people already have a 9 to 5 job somewhere and want to make extra cash in the evening hours. And when the website is done and once they have cashed in for their work they lose interest and move on. Everything works fine until the day comes that the website needs serious maintenance. That's how it simply goes out there.

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Noone wants to blame small offices and business that are in need for a website that won't break the bank.

I blame those professional scammers that sell 80-dollar-theme-based sites as custom-made [whatever buzzword fits here] website and either charge way too much or dump prices with it.

 

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9 hours ago, pwired said:

Yeah keep on wp trolling, it feels good I know. But lets get real for a change, it's 2018 and not 2010 any more when wp was total crap. Plugins and safety have been improved since then. I know people who deliver websites faster than I do and make more money with wp than I do ! All they do is go to themeforest or envato and search for a cool looking template with forms, mail, client base and the whole shebang for around 50 or 80 dollar. It takes them less then a week to set it up and then sell it somewhere between 500 and 1500 dollar. And clients like the wp admin because it only takes simple mouse clicks for them to edit a wp site with new text, pics or prices. How I found out all this ? Simply because I get called by offices, real estates, photographers, etc. because their webmaster/developer took off, disappeared or they ended up with agreement conflicts. They need somebody to take over. No backups were made for half a year, cpanel access has gone, yearly domain registry  has gone, etc. All they have left is the wp-admin login. So the more I got involved the more I started to see what is going on in wp land. The reason why I stick to pw ? Because working with wp dumbs you down to a copy and paster - drag and dropper. Working with pw upgrades your skills and you learn to webcode. But really, when it comes to working hours and making money, wp is the better choice.

The truth is, a simple WordPress theme modified and used in the correct way is good enough for most companies. Are they being ripped off? Probably. Will they be able to do it themselves? Unlikely. It still takes a designers eye to get the absolute best out of a theme.

I worked for a company like that. 9-5, using a WordPress theme and just slightly modifying it or sometimes not at all. There's not absolute creative freedom but not everyone needs an artisan website. I enjoyed working there, the work was easy. But I wasn't crafting my skills. I now work at an established creative agency where people pay a lot of money for the designs and our designers are genius, as an aspiring designer, I'm envious. But it would never be an option for us to just use a theme. It would be dishonest to our clients that go to us for our design prowess.

We find our clients find ProcessWire easier than WordPress to edit. I understand with ACF there isn't much difference between the two. But actually it's less about the forms and more about what is unique to ProcessWire - everything is a "page". The thing that threw me the most when I first moved from WordPress to ProcessWire became the absolute greatest thing about the CMS. It gives everything a level of consistency and doesn't lock you down to "taxonomy", "tags", "post types", "terms". You aren't locked down to a relationship structure and you can make a relationship structure that works for you, your clients and the website. 

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Yes @pwired have heard all the arguments. The thing that annoys me most of all is Google. Google sprouts the importance of clean code, speed, well formed HTML, blah blah blah. My PW sites deliver and yet WP sites that fail with unrecoverable HTML errors, are barely responsive, have yawningly slow load times still rate in SERP pages. How does that work?

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5 hours ago, psy said:

Google sprouts the importance of clean code, speed, well formed HTML, blah blah blah. My PW sites deliver and yet WP sites that fail with unrecoverable HTML errors, are barely responsive, have yawningly slow load times still rate in SERP pages. How does that work?

Clean code, less code than content (ratio), and fast content delivery aren't a guarantee of good SERP results. You can build the smallest, cleanest and bestest website ever and get outranked by a crappy WordPress instance. Sometimes other things matter more than that. Links, links, links, spammy content, PBN links, more PBN links, more spammy content... all those grey to black techniques still work for almost every site.

Old domain with trust but spammy content and WordPress footprint? Perfect! We already love it.

New domain with better content, better UI, better load times? Are you kidding me? We will never rank that!

You build clean, fast sites as a base for more. Good SERP results are a thing you have accomplish with several other things.

Spend a few hundred dollars for a good, old, trustworthy domain, create 100 pages of optimized content pages for another 200 - 300 dollars, get lots of links from trusted sources (Reddit, LinkedIn, Blogs, ...), buy 10-30 more good old domains, build spammy sites with matching content, create backlinks, outreach to other spammers bloggers, get more links and you are in the Top 10 to Top 3.

Don't play fair on money keywords.

That won't work.

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