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Nico Knoll

Shop-for-ProcessWire (@Apeisa)

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Sorry for poor communications from my part. New shop module is currently in closed beta testing. I am pretty busy at the moment (both work and personal), so there is not too much focus on this.

For the pricing I am thinking something like 50€ - 99€ for single site license. Also currently (slowly) building full featured shop profile, that would be single purchase and free to use parts or fully as many times as wanted (single site license required for all new shops though).

I would be very interested in this module. Currently fiddling with the existing ShoppingCart, but there is a lot of features I need to build on top of it (invoice generation, license agreement generation, taxes, VAT lookup, emailing and so on).

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Sorry for poor communications from my part. New shop module is currently in closed beta testing. I am pretty busy at the moment (both work and personal), so there is not too much focus on this.

For the pricing I am thinking something like 50€ - 99€ for single site license. Also currently (slowly) building full featured shop profile, that would be single purchase and free to use parts or fully as many times as wanted (single site license required for all new shops though).

Its possible to test the module ? 

Or to see a demo or something ? When do you thing it could be online ? 

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Judging by the lack of response from apesia here it appears that he wants to be left alone as far as this module goes at the moment.

Maybe best for us to let off with the pressure as I am sure he will surprise us with an update when he is ready.

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No worries guys, sorry I haven't keep you updated. It's been busy here with other things, so no new progress on this. I think it will take winter (or next summer...) holidays for me to get back to this.

Maybe I release early bird release of what I have now... I have been hesitating with that because I know I can't provide any real support.

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No worries guys, sorry I haven't keep you updated. It's been busy here with other things, so no new progress on this. I think it will take winter (or next summer...) holidays for me to get back to this.

Maybe I release early bird release of what I have now... I have been hesitating with that because I know I can't provide any real support.

I am sure others would be willing to contribute to this project/module if you released it and would be happy with that dependent in which form you want to release it(closed or open project).

Not sure if you know but there was a discussion here about putting together an active “Shop Development Group” if you would be open to something like that.

If you release early bird, I promise not to ask support from you. ;)

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I would be willing to contribute to the project within the next 3 months because it seems like I will have plenty of free time during this period.

The other question is if you're willing to let others work on your project especially semi-experienced php developers like me.

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I also promise untill you have time ;).

There are many people like dazzyweb for asking questions ;).

Some People use the current module here. Could maybe someone export an example profile with the Shop (Invoice, PayPal,Email notification ) ?

I've seen 3 or 4 different versions. One in the Modules Repo. Modifications done by Soma and some modified files by Nicko.

So it's for halfcoders like me confusing which one to use now ?

I've tried to combine this examples for me but it won't really work.

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For my part I can say that I have hired a developer to extend the existing ShoppingCart. Haven’t started yet, but it feels a bit silly to develop something that would quite possibly be included in the new shopping cart system. The developer I’ve taken on is very capable, so if you want to have his eyes on your new system let me know :-* .

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@claus In what way is your developer extending the existing shopping cart?

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@claus In what way is your developer extending the existing shopping cart?

In the ways I tell him to  :P No, I mentioned what I need in this post:

I would be very interested in this module. Currently fiddling with the existing ShoppingCart, but there is a lot of features I need to build on top of it (invoice generation, license agreement generation, taxes, VAT lookup, emailing and so on).

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Small update on this: I will build support for tax classes, stock management and simple reports during Christmas holidays. After that hopefully ready for wider beta testing.

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Regarding support for tax classes:

Will that include being able to deal with the new euro vat rules for digital services?

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Is it British problem only or does it affect all eu countries? My twitter is full about that insanity, but only from British people.

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Is it British problem only or does it affect all eu countries? My twitter is full about that insanity, but only from British people.

It is an EU thing now. The shop needs to support the lookup of the buyer’s VAT-number, and if found valid delete the VAT from the bill.

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It affects all EU countries. There is a discussion on this forum here about it and quite a few links.

From what I know and there is still a lot of confusion about this, the shop will have to detect if the buyer is inside the EU and if so which country he is from and work out the correct tax to add for that country or region(the rate of vat will be according to the purchasers country). This will only apply if it is a business to consumer transaction. 2 forms of proof will need to be collected to show this such as IP address. If it is a business to business transaction then I think a vat number or proof needs to be collected from the buyer to prove that it is a business that is purchasing and then the VAT should be omitted.

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@apeisa

It probably hits the Brits harder than anyone else but it is pan-European (the EU also wants it to be Worldwide.) Even Philipp from Conclurer has posted about it.

Basically it shifts VAT calcs from the VAT rate charged in the nation of the seller to the nation of the buyer. Business-to-business sales are unaffected but business-to-consumer sales are covered by the rules. As @Claus points out, the sales process will have to be more complex as the point-of-sale systems will now need to be able to collect, prove (how, I don't know) and retain information about customer type (business or consumer) and their location for 10 years (security implications anyone?) and use that information to charge the correct rate of VAT - which will change across 28 authorities now instead of just your local one.

The retention of potentially valuable customer location data (like a billing address) is worrying to me as a lot of places are probably going to leak it or have it stolen over that 10 year period. Data can only be held on servers/sites based within the EU. Depending on local interpretation of the legislation keeping this data may also require you to register with your local data-protection registrar/authority (it does here in the UK - with the attendant responsibilities and liability for audit etc.)

So now we all have to...

  • Migrate Servers/Sites inside the EU if they were hosted outside. 
  • Complicate the order process (=> fewer conversions to sales)
  • Match at least 2 data points about customer location and store them for 10 years (security anyone?)
  • Perhaps register with local data protection agency.
  • Keep up with VAT rates in 27 additional countries.
  • (probably) charge the customer more than before (though some customers in low tax locations may see price decreases)
  • Submit quarterly VAT returns.
  • Disburse tax collected to the correct member state (though there is the mini-one-stop-shop system that can help here)

If you weren't previously liable to submit a VAT return then you will also have to register for VAT in at least your local jurisdiction and use the MOSS -or- VAT register in, and disburse funds to, every EU state in which you have a consuming client.

Updated to add this missed paragraph: It also means that sellers can be pursued for tax by any and all EU tax authorities now, not just their local one.

I guess a lot of people are going to switch from self-hosted solutions like using the PW shop module over to services that act as resellers as that means our relationship with them is now business-2-business and they take care of all the new compliance issues.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I hope that helps clarify a few things.

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It affects all EU countries. There is a discussion on this forum here about it and quite a few links.

From what I know and there is still a lot of confusion about this, the shop will have to detect if the buyer is inside the EU and if so which country he is from and work out the correct tax to add for that country or region(the rate of vat will be according to the purchasers country). This will only apply if it is a business to consumer transaction. 2 forms of proof will need to be collected to show this such as IP address. If it is a business to business transaction then I think a vat number or proof needs to be collected from the buyer to prove that it is a business that is purchasing and then the VAT should be omitted.

Oh dear gawd. So I have to tally the sum of deferred VAT and then reverse charge that… ? Jesus what a complicated system.

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@apeisa

It probably hits the Brits harder than anyone else but it is pan-European (the EU also wants it to be Worldwide.) Even Philipp from Conclurer has posted about it.

Basically it shifts VAT calcs from the VAT rate charged in the nation of the seller to the nation of the buyer. Business-to-business sales are unaffected but business-to-consumer sales are covered by the rules. As @Claus points out, the sales process will have to be more complex as the point-of-sale systems will now need to be able to collect, prove (how, I don't know) and retain information about customer type (business or consumer) and their location for 10 years (security implications anyone?) and use that information to charge the correct rate of VAT - which will change across 28 authorities now instead of just your local one.

The retention of potentially valuable customer location data (like a billing address) is worrying to me as a lot of places are probably going to leak it or have it stolen over that 10 year period. Depending on local interpretation of the legislation keeping this data (has to be inside the EU so that's my US hosting deal blown out of the water for qbox.co) may also require you to register with your local data-protection registrar/authority (it does here in the UK - with the attendant responsibilities and liability for audit etc.)

So now we all have to...

  • Migrate Servers/Sites inside the EU if they were hosted outside. 
  • Complicate the order process (=> fewer conversions to sales)
  • Match at least 2 data points about customer location and store them for 10 years (security anyone?)
  • Perhaps register with local data protection agency.
  • Keep up with VAT rates in 27 additional countries.
  • (probably) charge the customer more than before (though some customers in low tax locations may see price decreases)
  • Submit quarterly VAT returns.
  • Disburse tax collected to the correct member state (though there is the mini-one-stop-shop system that can help here)

If you weren't previously liable to submit a VAT return then you will also have to register for VAT in at least your local jurisdiction and use the MOSS -or- VAT register in, and disburse funds to, every EU state in which you have a consuming client.

I guess a lot of people are going to switch from self-hosted solutions like using the PW shop module over to services that act as resellers as that means our relationship with them is now business-2-business and they take care of all the new compliance issues.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I hope that helps clarify a few things.

:'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(

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@Claus

Forgot to mention that the date for compliance is ... 1st Jan 2015.

There's a lot of Brits are up in arms about this as it impacts what micro-businesses here will now have to deal with more than a lot of European friends as most of us didn't previously have to deal with VAT returns at all. Now they all have to VAT register and (presumably) put up prices as a result. This is slightly exaggerated but sums up the options as a lot of small sellers here see them...

vatmoss.gif

Regardless of the above mentioned UK perspective, this legislation will change the way a lot of other Europeans trade and, consequently, there's now an EU-wide petition to have a threshold introduced for all this. Please consider signing this and joining the #vatmoss and #vatmess discussion, in your local language, on twitter or facebook and share it.

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It’s a sad state of affairs. I’ll see what my local rules are.

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I think this all goes like the cookie insanity. Law change is so stupid that it really cannot work. Although this is probably done because of all large digital business (app store, google) are run from Ireland because of lowest vat.

In Finland you don't have to pay vat if sales are under 8000€, interested to see whether that have changed because of this.

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@apeisa, that changes on the first of next month for digital products and services. Local exemptions no longer seem to apply to anything other than domestic sales. At least, that's the case here. We can keep our domestic VAT threshold for sales to UK customers but sales to other EU citizens have to be taxed. If we want to use the MOSS system to handle disbursement of the collected tax then we have to register for VAT and do all the accounting and paperwork even if the submitted total for the domestic VAT is a big fat zero.

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My initial need is to support different local vat classes. I will take a look into this vatmess, but I wouldn't hold my breath for full support (although it probably isn't that big stretch from that) . It seems the technical hurdle is the smallest one for dealer. If I understood correctly, you need to register into each eu country as seller. Do you need to report those taxes also into each country?

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