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New Forum: Feedback


ceberlin

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It's slightly amusing that the most heated exchanges I recall seeing here in a long time are not about PW, but the forum! FWIW it all looked a bit alien yesterday at first glance, but either @Pete has been working to make it look more familiar or it's easy to get used to. (I suspect maybe a bit of both.)

There are obvious improvements - the @ mentions are good, this RTE seems nice and light (although did I notice some funkiness with the first letter of this post being misplaced?) and who knows but the search might be better. ;) I'm sure there will be other good things to discover along the way.

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6 hours ago, tpr said:

What bugs me more is that headlines link to first post and not to the last. Is there a setting to change this? Clicking the last comment date links there but it's inconvenient.

@tpr that setting was changed and should link to the first unread post. Is it still linking to your first post? You also have the option to create an activity stream and set that up to suit your needs.

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When something changes you always get stressed (or delighted, if you're lucky). But changes are the nature of the webdev game we play. So better be prepared.

Anyway, someone being here the 1st day probably won't notice anything ;). The fact that you're used to the old forum just proves how addicted to PW you are!

But we can probably tune a few things. Here is my list of butt-hurting new stuff:

  1. The question-answer functionality. I think it can be turned off, but for now it still persists in some forum threads. I do not know why.
  2. New restrictions. I tried to reply in the News & Announcement forums and could not.
  3. My favorite way of using the forums has always been going through the new content list. Now I have to make a few more clicks to get to that page. If this is common, maybe but a link in the top menu? The look of that page with the timeline looks unusual to me and filtering is not as fast, but I can learn to live with that.
  4. There is too much dark colors (on the pager, for example). If there is a chance to bring that old light theme to the new forums, it would be great.
  5. The pager on the top is below the initial post. I think it previously was above it.
  6. I could not insert any smiles. I found the menu icon on the top, but nothing happens when I click on emoticons. Or is it just me? Well i did it with drag-and-drop, but still a bug.

Thanks Pete!

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It has happened in the past 2 times already and will happen again sooner or later. 

Looking back I still liked the first forum the most in terms of overview and browsing. I got annoyed by the changes to something I used everyday and was used to it. Always takes some time to adapt and we all know it can be frustrating. Sometimes it's just the styling that's so different your brain has to adapt. But after a while you'll maybe even appreciate it or forget about it. :)

But then it has to be done and I appreciate all the work put into it, as it's a tedious work done in Pete's spare time.

I'm also surprised to how much has changed in the new version as it's completely a new thing, and I it took me a while to see where I find what. 

I think the "why" isn't the problem it's the how you wrote it with the uppercase and the 4 (edit: oh 5!) exclamation marks!!!!. ;)

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1 hour ago, ceberlin said:

I am open to any modifications of the title  (I do not have the problem myself with it as "why" can basically mean anything) but I am not moderating and not make changes there, can I?

@ceberlin Yes, you should be able to. In the old forum you would edit the first post and select 'full editor' or something like that. In the new one it should take you directly to a full editor, I think.

For people searching where they could post their views about the new forum a title like 'New Forum: Feedback' is more obvious than why!!!! (which btw, is very different from why? :P). 

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1 hour ago, kongondo said:

@tpr that setting was changed and should link to the first unread post. Is it still linking to your first post? You also have the option to create an activity stream and set that up to suit your needs.

The headlines ever have linked to the first post. To go to the exact post, you need to click the date / time links (those with the clock). This behave also is unchanged, it is like before! The only thing what have changed is that the circles and or stars are gone, what should bring us to the first unread post. But this only have moved. Now you personally can set this as your default behave.

And with the new forum we can adjust a lot to our personal likes, what we couldn't do with the older one. I like it more and more. The embedded search is better now too. (Not that good than the google one, but better than the old one)

I really appreciate @Petes hard work here. To me it looks like he is figthing a big thing. If you read the first announcement, he said that the forum would be down for 6 hours +, but later he changed this to an estimated downtime of only 30 minutes!, but with an uggly presentation for the first hours, as there have to run a massive background task to incorporate the old content into the new forums presentation. Alone this one is a massive support to the community. And if something wouldn't have went well, it would have been only up to him to fix this. He really trusts into the coumminty to do well with (not editing) the old contents during this period. (To be honest, I wouldn't have done so. I would have totally closed it for 12 hours. :P:lol:)

So, a big thanks @Pete!

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Just a quick note: I was writing a long well prepared response, even got a note about kongondos post in the meantime. Hit SAVE. Sofware confirmed save. Message gone, Everything lost. Found myself logged-out. Now this really is not so encouraging for me, trust me.

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@ceberlin  Hmm...this new version is supposed to be caching responses every few seconds as you are typing in your browser's local filestore to safeguard against losing content, e.g. if you navigate away. . I have no clue though what happened in your case...

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Just one last comment before I am off from the discussion for a while (I am really frustrated about the lost message with my suggestions):

I think we all agree that the forum can contribute a lot the brand awareness of ProcessWire.

First security and reliability (a hacked forum would be a disaster) - so safety first and an up-to date software. A big thank to Pete's efforts in this regard.

Other brand goals are: "use with ease" and "well documented". Make the forum look "easy" to handle and optimize the accessibility of the overwhelming information... that is were we are now with the discussion. Are we?

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2 hours ago, Ivan Gretsky said:

My favorite way of using the forums has always been going through the new content list. Now I have to make a few more clicks to get to that page. If this is common, maybe but a link in the top menu? The look of that page with the timeline looks unusual to me and filtering is not as fast, but I can learn to live with that.

@Ivan Gretsky - you can click the tick mark next to the name of your activity stream, or even next to "Unread Content" on this page: https://processwire.com/talk/discover/unread/ - that will create a shortcut to this page:

Screen Shot 2016-06-19 at 7.02.54 AM.png

The tick goes green and results in the "Unread Content" link at the top right of the page. This works for any of your custom Activity Streams.

Screen Shot 2016-06-19 at 7.03.01 AM.png

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I to have a feeling that forum is slower. What bothers me is that font in emails is just to small for my (old?) eyes. I have to zoom on my S4 to read the text. I also think, that avatar on the left (in emails) is just taking space and should be moved up, along with member name. Actually I don't need the avatar (nor any other picture) in the email, unless picture is part of the message. Upvoting/downvoting in mobile view is just taking space. Other than that I like the forum, it look great, at least for me. Ok, will need some time to adapt (and most of us don't like to adapt to much), but this is expected. I "survived" several forum upgrades and this one was the smoothest, great job, Pete!  

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Wheee, what a lot of replies :) I'm going to ignore the silliness in the original title and some of the heated replies and just get straight down to answering some things as quickly as possible. Some changes are do-able, others you guys will have to adapt to unfortunately. Whilst forum software can be customised to an extent, my 10+ years managing these beasts has shown time and again that the more you change the more you suffer through even minor upgrades so we'll be changing some things where simple software settings allow and keeping any potentially upgrade-breaking changes to a minimum.

TL;DR not everyone is going to get what they wanted, but that's always the case unless you're working for a single client... and sometimes even then it's not guaranteed.

22 hours ago, ceberlin said:

It's the choice of colors and opacity. The most important thing are the headlines, they should not be dimmed. That's the main difference with the previous look.

Other elements  are attention-grabber but have no important function (huge black bars, like buttons that look like facebook buttons). 

And time will show if the simple question/answer methodology (yes it's trendy) helps. Usually the threads here are much more complex than simple question/answers.

 

Which headlines do you refer to? I just compared to the previous version and there's very little difference - same with the black bars, most of them were there before but all the elements were smaller along with the font size so perhaps they were just less noticeable? The like buttons were also there before, they're just a stronger blue.

Q&A forums - the staff are having a discussion about which should remain this way (probably Pro modules where each topic is usually a question) and which shouldn't (probably the main Modules forum where each module has only one topic. I personally think that will resolve the Q&A debate for the most part, and people will use the right forums for the right things (the descriptions for most of them under Community Support say something along the lines of "for asking questions or getting support" so you'd expect 99% of topics to be questions in those places). I think the Q&A forums will probably work well there even though they're a shock to the system as the community can decide to upvote answers in those topics and it will eventually lead to finding the best answers floating towards the top right below the question itself - if this works as it should it makes finding the answers to things much easier and that's got to be a plus for the community, I suggest we just have to give it time and make a few tweaks to which forums should be Q&A forums in the meantime. More on this after we've had our internal discussion.

22 hours ago, adrian said:

The Q&A style is probably going to go away for most boards - it certainly doesn't work for example in the Modules/Plugins board.

Well... let's have that internal discussion first and then we can let everyone know what the plans are :)

22 hours ago, ceberlin said:

Diego, I am normally a very positive guy. This forum has become a very important tool for me. I need to be able to find things quickly and easily. I was trying to look up a problem I have in the pro modules area and was stuck (which was not because of learning curves).

Now the headlines are dimmed (40% or less grayscale??) and unimportant stuff (back TAGS, "who asked"-line, and the green check icons get much more attention.)

I have not read the announcement yet (actually I was looking for it an did not find it) and understand that the update was necessary.

Really not sure what these headlines are that you're referring to? Nothing is particularly dimmed on my screen - can you please post a screenshot so I can be sure there's not some quirky browser/OS-specific CSS issues going on?

The announcement was in the News & Announcements > Site Announcements forum, also linked to in the latest blog post. It was about as visible as we could make it :)

As Soma said further down, the forum upgrades are something we're going to have to suffer every few years and there will be some features we'll miss and others we'll love - until someone recreates all of this in ProcessWire we have to keep moving with the times or face getting hacked which would be far worse than the disorientation we're suffering at the moment whilst we iron things out.

20 hours ago, Jan Romero said:

Am I the only one who got turned into a spice girl by the upgrade? :lol: Somehow it didn’t migrate my latest pic but the one I had up until a couple of weeks ago?

It liked that pic - it said so in step #423 of the upgrade routine ;)

19 hours ago, pwired said:

My opinion is that the new forum look has become visually totally cluttered and over exposed. I can't see anymore where online people are looking in what channels in the forum or who is currently reading in a thread like before. If I now hover over an online name the bottom of the popup disappears under the taskbar. The old forum look was clear, without fancy stuff and functional where it needed to be. What now happened with the forum upgrade will eventually also happen with processwire: pumped up with fancy stuff and Apple look a like styles. Status Quo rules everywhere. Am I being negative here or trying again to give my unbiased objective opinion ?

Can you let me know what version of Firefox and Windows you're using? You'll need to be on a recent Firefox version at least.

I'm going to ignore the rest of your post and focus on the important things that are coming out of this discussion.

15 hours ago, tpr said:

After the update the forum is much slower here on mobile, but maybe my phone is slow. I hope the conversion is still running so that's why its slower.

What bugs me more is that headlines link to first post and not to the last. Is there a setting to change this? Clicking the last comment date links there but it's inconvenient.

I think it's one of those things - the old version had a dedicated mobile skin but a limited feature-set, the new version is responsive but has every feature more or less. I think those who only browse but don't reply on their mobile will be disappointed by it being slower, but those who regularly reply on mobile will hopefully appreciate the more fully-functional aspect. There are some caching options we'll look into to try and speed things up - one area where this software falls down a bit is no easy CDN integration otherwise we could get some of the CSS and JS assets loading a lot quicker for everyone - hopefully there will be a solution for that further down the line.

13 hours ago, pwired said:

See the screenshot, bottom of popup stays under the windows taskbar, this never happened to me with the old forum setup. Also the popup doesn't show like before where in the forum a member is active reading or searching. The bottom of a thread didn't show anymore who is currently reading the thread but seems to work now.

See my earlier comment - can you let me know your OS and browser version please?

I added in the panel that shows who's browsing a topic last night. It just wasn't there by default as it's arguable as to whether it adds anything (and it does make the page load marginally slower doing the extra queries, but we're talking fractions of a second - same with all the blocks at the bottom and side of the main forum view actually).

12 hours ago, ceberlin said:

Commercial forum makers are under a brutal competition right now. In the first place with Facebook. So they add features over features to make their stuff more facebookish. One of the use cases where a classic forum is far superior from Facebook is a software support board like this one.

The old forum usability was my reference (it was that good!) when setting up my own (xenforo) Forums. The new skin should have all tools on board to get us there again, if we want. (I am not talking about needed learning curves for users, or taste things). I try to focus on usability questions for the speficic needs of a technical support forum.

To sum up where we are:

  • No one is denying the fact that it is crucial to keep a forum as up-to-date as possible, for security and support reasons alone. So this step is appreciated!
  • If Pete was not praised enough for doing this step (99% of the really hard work is under the hood and cannot bee seen): A big thank you from us here!
  • I see that it can be seen as "negative" if a first comment is about usability (I was really shocked) and not about the big improvements under the surface.
  • Where some of us agree is that the "Q&A" setup is not suitable for some of the forums, as we use them up to now.
  • Where some of us agree is that (a) the skin (css in the first place) could need a closer look and (b) this should be no big technical problem. There I would like the discussion to continue. - This is, where everyone agrees.

I will use this afternoon to be more precise with my wishes. For example: Make navigational elements (headlines, breadcrumbs, search fields) very prominent. Make clutter (location of  a member, tags, starter of a thread) less prominent. Small changes can have big effects to bring back the cleanness and usability of the old forum look.

This forum has actually had a huge number of features stripped out compared to the last version, behind the scenes at least - complete rewrite (yay, more bugs :D) to support namespaces, PHP7 and get away from legacy junk code that was going to break soon in a future PHP version. They've made an effort in the code to keep it all nicely up to date and more easily updateable (less fragmented in terms of functions in obscure locations etc) so hopefully all future upgrades will run a bit smoother from a purely technical point of view and actually managing it is a lot nicer and easier, though that doesn't directly help you guys browse around day-to-day of course.

The main things that have changed on the frontend are the activity streams which promote status updates alongside forum posts. Member status updates were actually in the last version as well, just so hidden in a person's profile they made no sense being there. We do have the ability to change the default activity streams to ONLY include topics, but I'm actually hoping that status updates might make things a bit more social - you can either post a status update in the software or link your Twitter accounts and it's then a doddle to share information that doesn't warrant a topic of its own but might be interesting to other members - same as the previous forums, just with a lot more visibility. You can also turn it off manually in the streams so it's only topics that show up in the feeds. The layout in that section is of course completely different - no denying that.

I don't think commercial discussion forums are in a massive battle with social media platforms so much, more with each other. Whilst they might lose the smaller customers to Facebook groups, I've seen the larger customers - the ones who pay the big money to have everything done and customised for them - stick with them through thick and thin because they, like us, value holding onto our data and keeping it with the rest of the information. We've stuck with IPB because it's a) the one I know and b) still has a decent set of features whereas some others are now over-bloated or too lightweight for us in my opinion. Since I'm the one who has to run it I'm sticking with what I know for now. That may change in future, but we'll always want a hosted forum where we can control the content rather than relying on a slow third party service or shipping everything over to Facebook so we'll always be somewhat at the mercy of "what the devs have done this time" when a new version is released. Pretty sure I'm just agreeing with you at this point ceberlin, but thought I'd comment on what I'm thinking anyway :)

On to CSS - it is possible to change a lot but there is likely to be a new site theme coming along in the next few months so I don't want to spend masses of time changing too much and have to do it all again later - we will focus on usability. Most things are pretty much where they were before though, so some of the things you list there are a bit confusing to me to be honest. If you can give me small screenshots highlighting the things you think are not as they were before or need to be improved that would be a great help to me.

11 hours ago, LostKobrakai said:

I especially found the frontpage forum overview to be a visual mess. Giving a fast overview does work different. The "explore questions" thing in some subforums (Q&A style ones I think) is also taking up way to much space imho. This might work as a sidebar element, but not above the actual content. Also the modules forum does suffer a lot in readability because of duplicated tags. I think everything else might really work out over time. 

Screenshot 2016-06-19 10.44.33.png

I think that's actually an error from import what you've shown above. In some forums we had pre-set prefixes as well as tags and it seems to have kept the prefixes but also applied the prefix title as a tag. No doubt I can work out an SQL query to rectify this at some point so there's no repetition and that should fix most of it. Again, the Q&A issues are likely mostly applicable to the modules forum - everywhere else they're applied they could be an improvement if we give them a chance.

9 hours ago, Ivan Gretsky said:

When something changes you always get stressed (or delighted, if you're lucky). But changes are the nature of the webdev game we play. So better be prepared.

Anyway, someone being here the 1st day probably won't notice anything ;). The fact that you're used to the old forum just proves how addicted to PW you are!

But we can probably tune a few things. Here is my list of butt-hurting new stuff:

  1. The question-answer functionality. I think it can be turned off, but for now it still persists in some forum threads. I do not know why.
  2. New restrictions. I tried to reply in the News & Announcement forums and could not.
  3. My favorite way of using the forums has always been going through the new content list. Now I have to make a few more clicks to get to that page. If this is common, maybe but a link in the top menu? The look of that page with the timeline looks unusual to me and filtering is not as fast, but I can learn to live with that.
  4. There is too much dark colors (on the pager, for example). If there is a chance to bring that old light theme to the new forums, it would be great.
  5. The pager on the top is below the initial post. I think it previously was above it.
  6. I could not insert any smiles. I found the menu icon on the top, but nothing happens when I click on emoticons. Or is it just me? Well i did it with drag-and-drop, but still a bug.

Thanks Pete!

  1. Q&A functionality is per-forum and can't be applied only to certain topics unfortunately or else that would solve the problem entirely - as such where you're seeing them that's where the forum is set to be a Q&A forum.
  2. That was an accident - it turned out someone yesterday was able to start a new topic in there (definitely not a good idea for everyone to be able to do that there! :D) and I over-did the permissions. You should be able to reply now.
  3. You can create custom filters on the activity stream, so if you change Unread Content to work exactly how you want you should then only have to move your mouse over the main Activity menu item and then click Unread Content and that would then function more like before, aside from the layout of course.
  4. It really isn't that much different. There was a big black bar across the top and all the forum titles were on a dark background. I feel like I'm going a bit crazy here so here's some screenshots for comparison:

    OLD:

    pw_old.jpg

    NEW:

    pw_new.jpg

    The elements are all a bit bigger so it's going to be a bit darker overall, but otherwise not much different. I also made the sidebar match a bit more rather than spend too much time customising something that's of less importance I think.
  5. I think that's just in Q&A forums, right?
  6. That sounds like a browser-specific bug - can you let me know OS, browser and version?

    Thanks!
8 hours ago, Soma said:

It has happened in the past 2 times already and will happen again sooner or later. 

Looking back I still liked the first forum the most in terms of overview and browsing. I got annoyed by the changes to something I used everyday and was used to it. Always takes some time to adapt and we all know it can be frustrating. Sometimes it's just the styling that's so different your brain has to adapt. But after a while you'll maybe even appreciate it or forget about it. :)

But then it has to be done and I appreciate all the work put into it, as it's a tedious work done in Pete's spare time.

I'm also surprised to how much has changed in the new version as it's completely a new thing, and I it took me a while to see where I find what. 

I think the "why" isn't the problem it's the how you wrote it with the uppercase and the 4 (edit: oh 5!) exclamation marks!!!!. ;)

I do remember all this from the first time around, yes, similar discussions took place then. And yes, the exclamation marks, but that's in the past now.

7 hours ago, horst said:

The headlines ever have linked to the first post. To go to the exact post, you need to click the date / time links (those with the clock). This behave also is unchanged, it is like before! The only thing what have changed is that the circles and or stars are gone, what should bring us to the first unread post. But this only have moved. Now you personally can set this as your default behave.

And with the new forum we can adjust a lot to our personal likes, what we couldn't do with the older one. I like it more and more. The embedded search is better now too. (Not that good than the google one, but better than the old one)

I really appreciate @Petes hard work here. To me it looks like he is figthing a big thing. If you read the first announcement, he said that the forum would be down for 6 hours +, but later he changed this to an estimated downtime of only 30 minutes!, but with an uggly presentation for the first hours, as there have to run a massive background task to incorporate the old content into the new forums presentation. Alone this one is a massive support to the community. And if something wouldn't have went well, it would have been only up to him to fix this. He really trusts into the coumminty to do well with (not editing) the old contents during this period. (To be honest, I wouldn't have done so. I would have totally closed it for 12 hours. :P:lol:)

So, a big thanks @Pete!

@horst technically everyone's right here. In the "View New Topics" link at the top-right of the old forums (now Activity Streams) the titles went to the first UNREAD post. When browsing topics in a forum normally and not using View New Topics they went to the first post AND had the little dot @adrian was getting annoyed with yesterday to go to the first unread post (I've changed this to an eye with a line through it since I think it's more appropriate and noticeable) so in fact the functionality is now exactly as it was. I've just confirmed this is the case by looking at the old forums which are hidden away for reference. Funny how the mind plays tricks on you isn't it? I think the biggest issue was the new streams not going to the latest unread post by default but we should now be mostly back to the original functionality.

To be fair, I would have closed the topics if I thought there was a chance editing old posts would screw things up, but the rebuild would have only changed the parts it needed to. That finished within 2.5 hours instead of 6 due to... well... this server being really fast I think, and leaving the forums open made more sense since I had a list of what needed doing and had timed it in the run-up to actually doing it, getting the bit where I had to delete and re-import the fixed posts table down to 5 minutes or less (guessing nobody spotted those few minutes where every bit of post content disappeared ;)).

But yeah, there was an initial feeling we should play it much safer and turn it all off, but there was more benefit in leaving it on in the end despite a little slowness for a few hours. This is as fast as it gets now by the way until myself and Ryan get some time to look into caching options, of which there are very few (I miss all the benefits of ProCache :D).

7 hours ago, ceberlin said:

Just a quick note: I was writing a long well prepared response, even got a note about kongondos post in the meantime. Hit SAVE. Sofware confirmed save. Message gone, Everything lost. Found myself logged-out. Now this really is not so encouraging for me, trust me.

Not sure why this would happen - it really shouldn't have. I'll see if anyone else on the main software support forum is reporting similar issues.

1 hour ago, matjazp said:

I to have a feeling that forum is slower. What bothers me is that font in emails is just to small for my (old?) eyes. I have to zoom on my S4 to read the text. I also think, that avatar on the left (in emails) is just taking space and should be moved up, along with member name. Actually I don't need the avatar (nor any other picture) in the email, unless picture is part of the message. Upvoting/downvoting in mobile view is just taking space. Other than that I like the forum, it look great, at least for me. Ok, will need some time to adapt (and most of us don't like to adapt to much), but this is expected. I "survived" several forum upgrades and this one was the smoothest, great job, Pete!  

The emails do definitely need some tweaking. Avatars are certainly a little superfluous in a notification email, I agree!

Well that took a long time, but keep the comments coming. I certainly can't guarantee we'll do everything that's requested but the least I can do is listen and read the replies.

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What push notifications does this new version of IPB use?

Being old-schook, I normally open each forum in a new tab, then again open a new tab for each thread I want to view.  Firefox 47 now gives a popup on each page "would you like to receive notifications from this site"

Before I disable web notifications permanently, I'd like to know what notifications I won't be seeing.

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@Doug G

It'll just give you desktop notifications (little boxes that pop-up in the bottom right of your screen) whether you've got your browser maximised or minimised. You do still see the same notification icon at the top right of the forums so you can turn them off if you like or turn them on - personal preference really.

 @flydev I think the idea is to keep it shorter so it fits on even the smallest mobile screens. Technically using the word "hour"  make that bit of text wider than the photo above it so they've abbreviated it to be really short.

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Great job on the new forum @Pete.

Is there an account setting I can apply so replies in a Q&A thread are sorted by date by default? I find it hard to follow the conversation when they are sorted by rating and don't want to have to change the sort order manually for every thread.

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10 hours ago, Robin S said:

Not sure this is the right place to report this, but I noticed that the "Related Forum Threads" links in the documentation for the Images fieldtype are broken.

Thanks - I have relinked them all.

Looks like the id of each post has changed since the forum upgrade too. Seems like the upgrade process rewrote all the internal links, but I think any external links to posts will now be broken :(

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Ha, checked those links on Archive.org - they were old links from when we used SMF forums back in 2012 and earlier. It's entirely possible they've been broken the whole time...

I'll have a look and see if there are any others in need of an update.

EDIT: so it wasn't this forum upgrade that broke them is what I'm getting at - they've been broken for a long time :(

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